"Atheists have depressive life", i just can't get this one. Christians say it but i can't understand it, i don't know how it is to be Cristian because i am atheist from time i remember me.

I more thing atheists view live on earth as only live for him and without afterlife, so this is only live what you live and that is something what you don't want waste. For Cristian there is 1000000000000000000... years after dead (real hell even in heaven).

I want ask if someone can explain me Cristian view to this and why them say it, because i really can't get into it because don't have any real connection with religion and almost all friends is atheists. However i really think Christians somehow live to die if you know what i think with it O.o

Thanks.

I'd add that as an Atheist I also take full responsibility for my own actions and collectively as a member of the human race for the actions of others, not believing that a 'god' is actually responsible for everything, I have no 'get out clause' or other method to shift the blame. I value and enjoy my life and those of my friends and family as I don't believe that when they die I'll see them again.

I take a certain amount of pride in being able to face a harsh reality without the psychological crutch that I believe religions to be, born of fear and the inability to otherwise cope with it. Also in my ability to live a moral life, and raise moral children without needing a religion to tell me how to live or to make me feel special. I might be a completely meaningless random speck in the vastness of the universe with no importance or significance and I'm not concerned by that, in fact the beauty and complexity of it amazes and astounds me.

I feel a sense of wonder and awe without needing to attribute it to a creator being.

Best of all, it doesn't matter if I'm wrong.

I see no disadvantages, and plenty of advantages to being Atheist so I'd also like to hear why Christians might pity or otherwise have sympathy for Atheists?

I will respond to both posts.

First, I do not think atheists have a depressing life necessarily. There is an ultimately bleak aspect to atheism in that within that world view (assuming materialism which is not exactly synonymous with atheism) when you die it will be as if you never existed. The life you are living will not only end, it will cease to exist and your state will be indistinguishable from never having existed.

That does not depress you in general because you do not think about it deeply enough to really understand the implications. I do not completely understand the mental sleight of hand that allows you to pull that off, but that's ok.

Concerning the second post, that completely reverses my perception of atheism and theism. Many atheists seem to feel that free will does not exist and that their actions are in some way inevitable. That is actually a denial of responsibility, not an acceptance of it. Theists in general believe that God created them but that they were endowed with free will which makes them ultimately responsible and accountable for their actions.

I do not really have pity or sympathy for atheists. I think they have made an error in judgment and hope it works out ok for them.

So basically "atheists can be happy, but only if they don't think it through deeply"? This is pretty condescending. Let me assure you there are many atheists who HAVE very much thought about it deeply and its implications and are, nonetheless, not just not depressed by it but indeed find it a rather aesthetically pleasing world view.

There are, of course, quite a range of different believes in the free will vs determinism debate, but there is no position on here that is a consequence of atheism and indeed atheists will happily debate free will vs determinism for ages. However, even for those that have decided one way or the other, I don't think either "side" makes one intrinsically more or less happy or one is more or less bleak. In particular, a believe in determinism does not necessarily mean people have to conclude there is no meaning to their lives.

would you mind briefly saying why this should depress me in general? sure, having no afterlife is depressing compared to an infinite life of paradise. But to admit that it is depressing in general is basically admitting that your current life is in itself depressing and hardly worth having all on its own, which to me is the more depressing view.

also, i don't think it matters greatly how having this belief makes me feel. what matters is whether it is true. Believing in falsehoods because they'd make you happier would pretty quickly leave me totally outside of reality.

Look, you asked for a theist's view and I gave it to you. I did not ask for your rationalizations for your opinion and I hardly feel the need to argue with them. If you fully understand the implications of eventual non-existence and find that pleasing, great. If you can demonstrate that I hold a belief in a falsehood, feel free to present that argument. Otherwise, what more is there to discuss?

i'll have to quote good ole Carl Sagan on this one.

"It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."

i'm constantly awe stricken about the nature of reality as it actually is. i constantly get boner for science. no fairy tales necessary for this guy. there's enough spectacular information (that has some objective validity) out there to keep me curious and happy for far longer than i will live.

I think that relative to the Christian worldview, materialistic atheism is bleak. I would prefer eternal life to mortality, the bliss of heaven to the nothingness of death, and confidence that the universe was ultimately just to the recognition that, as the Preacher says, the rain falls on the just and the unjust.

However, I think it is a mistake to conclude from this that materialistic atheism is bleak full stop. For many atheists, such as myself, we do not see this as a bleak worldview because we are not using Christianity as our baseline. I, for instance, use non-existence as a baseline. Do I think of my life, understood within the materialistic paradigm, as bleak, dry, or empty of meaning? No, because my existence is superior to non-existence. The fulfillment of my hopes, dreams, and desires (among other things) makes me value my continued and prior existence more than my not existing at all.

There is nothing necessary about this. My life could be so miserable that it really was bleak, even worse than non-existence, or only a little better. But that would not be the result of my being an atheist. Rather, that would be the result of having a bad life.

I am a professional scientist with a PhD. I love science. But if the bold is true you may have confused science with porn.

Do you really think that Atheists, or me personally, arrived at Atheist views without deep thought? In order to become an Atheist, I first had to think through the particular religion that was being urged on me in order to eventually reject it.

Also, how would we have made an 'error of judgement' without having thought about something?

"Comfortable" or "moral" are not sound criteria for truth.


Let's exemplify:
"Will this man die if I push him of a cliff?"

The answer isn't "no" because it would be comfortable. Neither is the answer "no" because pushing him of the cliff would be immoral.

It's all relative. You may well feel that you have thought deeply. But your comments do not convey that feeling to me. Again, I do not care. I have explained my point of view. You can protest all you like, but to change my mind you are going to have to say something that I have not heard before. Everything in this thread so far are comments that I have heard dozens of times. It is basically denial. That is ok. Whatever it takes to get you through the day.

Realize that I am not trying to convince you that there is a God. That is not my goal. I only want you to improve the quality of your thought process. If you do, that may lead you somewhere new or it may not.

But wouldn't a materialist not see his own death as the end of everything, since the effects from his life will live on past his own final breath? If I were a materialist, I would find meaning in my life by how I could positively affect those around me. I would focus energy on learning from those who came before me, and passing that wisdom/knowledge on to those who will come after me. And thus, my existence has a purpose larger than my limited years of life.

Yes, this should strike true.

In my view, existence is as much imprint as intrinsic property. People exist to us and them based on our actions and reactions.

These actions and reactions do not cease to exist because we die. If I go to the grave of loved one, I'm not celebrating a corpse... I'm remembering a human being whose actions are still as real as they ever were.

This view ofcourse also becomes a guiding principle for my own ethics. I am what I do unto others and myself, so to speak.

I remember a quote from a debate between kagan and WLC, where WLC was arguing against life having any significance on atheism (although he meant materialism) because people had finitie lives and the like. Kagan responded that this meant we didn't have eternal cosmic significance, but that it was a mistake to conclude that this meant there was no significance.

It is also worth noting that the christian world view is not JUST one of eternal bliss in heaven compared to the bleakness of nonexistence. There is also the threat of eternal suffering burning in hellfire. I have been informed that this is precisely what awaits me. So to simply say the one side of it seems to severely lacking.

Then I guess the conversation is over, it's a little difficult to reason with someone who's position is that I'd see the error of my ways if I just thought about it a little harder or more deeply.

I can't, unfortunately, pay you the same compliment.

I understand that argument and I recognize it as a mechanism for dealing with our situation. Full stop.

However, it does not really address my point. You have to go back to the question, "what does it mean for something to exist?". Ultimately, things only exist in our mind. The universe and everything in it exists because your mind has created that picture out of various inputs. Without your mind, the universe does not exist. When you die (assuming materialism) that awareness of a universe is gone. Not forgotten or ended, but gone exactly the same as if you had never existed or the universe had never existed. That is the reality. Everything will be the same as if you had never existed in the only reality that actually exists for you.

For me, that recognition was an important step in the eventual path to theism. In my mind it is an inevitable path, but that could be an error. But the recognition and acceptance is important imo to accurately address the question of "How should I live my life?"

Honestly, I place no value on compliments from you, so it is not unfortunate at all.

Understand that I am not arguing that you should become a Christian or accept the Christian worldview. Kagan was mistaken imo, but it is a necessary mistake to sustain materialism. The fact is that an effect that completely and utterly disappears in a finite number of years is not significant.

I dont see how you reasoned from

Everything will be the same as if you had never existed

to

Therefore god?

It sounds like you are saying that you accepted theism because you couldnt face the bleakness and purposelessness of the alternative?

(also, you dont exist now, so why worry about not existing later)

Thanks all for posting, it gave me some thinks to think about.

I know many atheists who rejected religion without giving it any deep thought at all.

See we can debate this point, and we can debate what the word "significant" means and the like, but the point I take issue with is your assertion that exception to atheists living a depressing live is that they have not thought about it deeply. This is just not true. Some HAVE thought about it deeply, they just disagree with you, but they live satisfying and happy lives.

As in, you are not just asserting "i am right", you are asserting "I am right and everybody else is either depressed or hasn't thought about it". It is condescending as well as wrong.

You shouldn't. It is one element of my reasoning and it does not lead to theism. It leads imo to the logical end that one should assume that there is a God. That is not the same as theism.

No. Definitely not. I could see how it sounds that way, but that does not describe my thought process.

Well, I do exist now. I do not worry about not existing later. But I do accept and understand the significance of not existing.

I do not believe that I said that every atheist is either depressed or has failed to think about the issue deeply. But I do believe that most atheists have not. Also some of those who claim to have thought about it deeply say things that make me think they are in some level of denial.

Accusing me of being condescending may be justified, but given the blanket acceptance of very condescending characterizations of theism typical on this site, I have no intention of retracting my comments or apologizing for them.