Atheist Recants - Page 4 - Religion, God, and Theology

It makes me wonder if being born again is to substitute for a spiritual unity we lost at the Fall. Maybe we had a more developed God Spot or better/more spiritual genes and that's part of what we lost.

05-18-2009 , 11:55 AM

#77

andyfox

2+2 urban legend

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 21,553

"When I thought I was an atheist I would listen to the music of Bach and realize that his perception of life was deeper, wiser, more rounded than my own."

How, exactly, did he determine this? When I listen to Bach, I realize his command of counterpoint, harmony, texture, rhythm, fugue, form, melodic contour and the demands of his employers was superb. Bach was a consummate craftsman and a talented musician. During periods of his life when music paper was hard to come by, the first thing Bach would do when he got some was to extend the lines of the staves all the way to the end of the paper. God had nothing to do with it.

05-18-2009 , 12:16 PM

#78

Splendour

banned

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 18,896

Quote:

Originally Posted by tame_deuces

Ok. Personally I would say spirituality is NOT a defined term but more an umbrella phrase covering anything from happiness to wondering about stuff.

The term "spiritual gene" is therefore to me a somewhat confusing term as I:

1.) Doubt there is a standard for spirituality.

2.) Doubt that the wide range of cognition and emotion interacting to create "spiritual experiences" can be causally attributed to genes. At best I would think they have some sort of statistical control that shows genes might contribute as an explanatory factor to the answers on some form of simplified survey that register as "spiritual".

I'll note that I haven't really read any material regarding my claim number 2. It's merely a guess.

I don't know if this is a sophisticated enough test but its a "self-transcendence" scale test: http://www.beliefnet.com/section/qui...D=&surveyID=37

You probably need to read Hamer's book. He's got chapters on Cloninnger's methodology.

Interesting article on Cloninger's integrative approach:
http://www.stlmag.com/media/St-Louis...-of-Happiness/

05-18-2009 , 12:31 PM

#79

kurto

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 17,634

God Gene primer-

from wiki-

Quote:

The God gene hypothesis proposes that human beings inherit a set of genes that predisposes them to believe in a higher power. The idea has been postulated by geneticist Dean Hamer, the director of the Gene Structure and Regulation Unit at the U.S. National Cancer Institute, who has written a book on the subject titled, The God Gene: How Faith is Hardwired into our Genes.

The God gene hypothesis is based on a combination of behavioral genetic, neurobiological and psychological studies. The major arguments of the theory are (1) spirituality can be quantified by psychometric measurements; (2) the underlying tendency to spirituality is partially heritable; (3) part of this heritability can be attributed to the gene VMAT2.[1] (4) this gene acts by altering monoamine levels, and (5) spirituality arises in a population because spiritual individuals are favored by natural selection. However, a number of scientists and researchers are highly critical of this theory; Carl Zimmer, writing in Scientific American, questions why "Hamer rushed into print with this book before publishing his results in a credible scientific journal."[2] In his book, Hamer backs away from the title and main hypotheses by saying "Just because spirituality is partly genetic doesn't mean it is hardwired,"[3]

Nothing in the above implies God, of course. Certainly not christianity.

Quote:

According to this hypothesis, the God gene (VMAT2), is not an encoding for the belief in God itself but a physiological arrangement that produces the sensations associated, by some, with the presence of God or other mystic experiences, or more specifically spirituality as a state of mind.

The name God Gene is erroneous. This might be why I've seen it more recently referred to as "spirituality gene."

Quote:

Scientific Criticism
Although it is always difficult to determine the many interacting functions of a gene, VMAT2 appears to be involved in the transport of the neurotransmitter monoamine across the synapses of the brain. This is a long way from a "God Gene", as PZ Meyers notes:

"It's a pump. A teeny-tiny pump responsible for packaging a neurotransmitter for export during brain activity. Yes, it's important, and it may even be active and necessary during higher order processing, like religious thought. But one thing it isn't is a 'god gene.'"[4]
Carl Zimmer claimed that, given the low explanatory power of VMAT2, it would have been more accurate for Hamer to call his book A Gene That Accounts for Less Than One Percent of the Variance Found in Scores on Psychological Questionnaires Designed to Measure a Factor Called Self-Transcendence, Which Can Signify Everything from Belonging to the Green Party to Believing in ESP, According to One Unpublished, Unreplicated Study.[5]. However Hamer notes that the importance of the VMAT2 finding is not that it explains all spiritual or religious feelings, but rather that it points the way toward one neurobiological pathway that may be important.

The amusing part is that many theologians (unlike Splendour) seem threatened by the idea of the gene.

Quote:

He replied: "The idea of a God gene goes against all my personal theological convictions. You can't cut faith down to the lowest common denominator of genetic survival. It shows the poverty of reductionist thinking." [6][7]

Walter Houston, the chaplain of Mansfield College, Oxford, and a fellow in theology, told the Telegraph: "Religious belief is not just related to a person's constitution; it's related to society, tradition, character—everything's involved. Having a gene that could do all that seems pretty unlikely to me."

05-18-2009 , 12:53 PM

#80

Splendour

banned

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 18,896

The book is much more exhaustive and exact than any wiki entry.

Almost a primer that should be read by any person arguing for or against religion based on science.

When is cutting edge science about the human race suddenly excludable?

05-18-2009 , 04:07 PM

#81

kurto

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 17,634

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splendour

of course the book is more exhaustive. That doesn't mean the wiki entry doesn't give the gist of what its about.

For the record, you are not qualified to judge if its a primer on the science. Especially since (1) its relatively new (2) has a large field of professional criticism (3) you are not a scientist... on the contrary, you have shown that you have a poor understanding of science.

Also- just because you like the name "god gene", doesn't mean that it is what you think it is, nor does that make it cutting edge or correct.

05-18-2009 , 10:36 PM

#82

RoundGuy

banned

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 10,247

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splendour

When is cutting edge science about the human race suddenly excludable?

When it isn't "cutting edge", and when it doesn't mean what you think it means.

Have a nice day.

05-18-2009 , 10:48 PM

#83

Funology

adept

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 898

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurto

Carl Zimmer claimed that, given the low explanatory power of VMAT2, it would have been more accurate for Hamer to call his book A Gene That Accounts for Less Than One Percent of the Variance Found in Scores on Psychological Questionnaires Designed to Measure a Factor Called Self-Transcendence, Which Can Signify Everything from Belonging to the Green Party to Believing in ESP, According to One Unpublished, Unreplicated Study.

lol

05-18-2009 , 10:54 PM

#84

Splendour

banned

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 18,896

Quote:

Originally Posted by tame_deuces

Well l would be more than happy to mail you the copy I have of the book.

You can check it out and let me know what you think. Several chapters to re-read and summarize is too much work.

05-19-2009 , 12:18 AM

#85

madnak

Cooler than Sammy Hagar

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 19,742

ffs

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