Did Pletho say he was born into it?

From previous posts I recall I think he made his own search. It didn't just fall in his lap.

Well I guess that makes him more high and mighty, staring down on others who can't accomplish this feat themselves, telling everyone trying that they are blasphemers.

edit: btw the quote splendour quotes was supposed to be in a different thread, i moved it before he even replied the quote i believe

Quite the contrary. Most theists on 2+2 start out quite amiable. Then they get trolled by atheists. I don't know how you hold a theist responsible for the bad impression the other group deliberately make on him. They actually get quite a kick out of their own antics.

Its like they want to play the manipulative guilt trip game. They know theists try to live up to Christian expectations so they think its a free for all. That they can say whatever they want and not be retaliated against. Rather like a child having a tantrum. Theists shouldn't retaliate. So the only option is to cut off the source of attention. You negatively reinforce bad behavior by rewarding it with attention.

Also don't people have responsibility for themselves past a certain point? There's absolutely no hypocrisy in pointing that out. Just a simple acknowledgment of individual human autonomy. If people insist on being treated like a knowing adult then I'll assume they are one after they indicate to me they are.

I mean if you're heading for a cliff and I think you're getting too close I'll warn you. I might even try to grab you before you go over. But if you keep heading for the cliff after more than one warning what's the warner's responsibility? At some point it becomes stupid to stay involved because there are a lot of easier people to talk to with better results.

It takes tricky translations like the first line to justify something crazy like hating fear and enjoying pleasure. Those atheistic fiends!

Maybe that's why people are always saying that we aren't getting happier and we have higher levels of depression. We are told what makes us happy when really it doesn't. A few of my friends work ridiculous hours with no time for a meaningful relationship because working long hours as a lawyer is what they've been told is a good job. Is it really? Maybe if we went back to simpler pursuits and focussed on personal enjoyment, however that is, rather than materialistic gain and oneupmanship.

So you think EQ is more important when it comes to discerning metaphysical truth? Why?

Splendour, do you even know what the definition of "trolling" is? i have been following SMP/RGT for years, and read almost every thread, and have never seen this before:

Please just show me a *single* example/thread of trolling by atheists, just one. Realize that disagreeing with you, or pointing out how ridiculous/off topic/hijack-y/irrelevant/illogical your posts are is not "trolling".

I'm pretty sure that most logical history texts will suggest that over-taxation and other money-related problems in Europe caused people to leave as well as religious differences, and some of these texts go as far as to say that the money issues were more important than the religious in coming upon the decision to leave.

heh

when you see over 80% of the letters in a post of mine capitalised it generally means im beyond a certain level of drunkenness and can be safely ignored =/

I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. - Thomas Jefferson

Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. - Thomas Jefferson

Say nothing of my religion. It is known to God and myself alone. Its evidence before the world is to be sought in my life: if it has been honest and dutiful to society the religion which has regulated it cannot be a bad one. - Thomas Jefferson

It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God.
Thomas Jefferson


Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.
George Washington, letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792

There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness.
George Washington, address to Congress, 8 January, 1790

...the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction.
George Washington, 1789, responding to clergy complaints that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, from The Godless Constitution: The Case Against Religious Correctness, Isacc Kramnick and R. Laurence Moore W.W. Norton and Company 101-10

If they are good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa or Europe; they may be Mahometans, Jews, Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists....
George Washington, to Tench Tighman, March 24, 1784, when asked what type of workman to get for Mount Vernon, from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover

...I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution. George Washington, to United Baptists Churches of Virginia, May, 1789 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover


When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion. - Abraham Lincoln


"Experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." --- James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785


Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins ... and you will have sins in abundance. I would not dare to dishonor my Creator's name by [attaching] it to this filthy book [the Bible].
Thomas Paine


Lighthouses are more helpful than churches. - Benjamin Franklin

my favorite presidential quote

No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God.- George Herbert Walker Bush

Yes intelligent people suffer from depression more. Materialism definitely has its downside. The more things you own the more they own you (your time) because of the maintenance. Of course, not everybody realizes this or cares about it.

No EQ is more for social situations and rising to the top. Goleman has a couple of books on it.

OMG...someone in touch with reality at last....he he...good for you...whatever you do don't take this forum too seriously...only the good are suppose to die young.

Yeah I have read about EQ, but what does that have to do with religion? Do you have any reason to assume that EQ is more relevant for metaphysical purposes?

Yes I know there are several of the great ones who I think are really fence sitters not totally coming down as deist/theists or atheists and Jefferson seems to have had a few elaborately strange ideas about religion.

I chock it up to them being so busy doing that they really didn't put in enough quiet time pondering. Yes that sounds egotistical but its really just an opinion based on an educated guess about them. Most people just can't be Renaissance men with an all surpassing knowledge in all disciplines. They just don't have enough personal acumen or resources though they are likely to look like they can and their greatness in other areas lends credence or gives deception to areas where they may actually be weak.

The more intellectual a person gets with worldy wisdom the more they willfully seperate themself from spiritual wisdom. It takes a self proclaimed intellectual spiritual idiot to come up with the not so bright idea that there is no God. LOL!

Pletho

So then you're completely agreeing that being intellectual and possessing worldly wisdom leads to an absence of faith, and implicitly stating that you yourself are not intellectual and do not possess worldly wisdom. For once you've stated something that we can pretty much all agree with.

Actually I spiritual wise person gets the best of both worlds. They have spiritual wisdom which supercedes world wisdom. Plus they are able to distinguish from worldly wisdom that is actually based on truth from worldy wisdom that is a lie.

Soloman was one of these men and believe me the whole world knows of this man he is not just recorded in the bible as the wisest man that ever lived. Jesus Christ had great wisdom. David (the King) had great wisdom and any other man that looks at the world from God's viewpoint has great wisdom that is far beyond and superior to any Harvard Grad. Sure they may not have BOOK knowledge or the university type of knowledge but they have great practical knowledge on HOW to succeed in this life.

Graduating from Harvard, Princeton or MIT doesn't gaurantee eternal life.

Pletho

Nothing does - not even you magical book.

.... the demise of organised religion...... thank god

False gods? I'd like to hear you disprove the existence Buddha and Allah.

only 15%? Im glad I don't live in such a stupid country

Being surrounded by stupid people isn't that bad of a place for a smart person.

A number of quotes have gone unchallenged....
You know, this is simply not true. Many of the men of the 15th through the 19th century were students of the "enlightenment." Yes, there were sectarian wars going on and yes many of the early settlers of this country were refugees from the "War of the Roses" and other sad examples of victimization of christians by christians who didn't get the message. In fact, at this time in history the arguments among atheists, agnostics and christians were as heated as-no more heated than-this one. Men were as highly intelligent in those days as they are today. Fewer of them were highly educated but that does not mean they were not intelligent.
Did you know that the massive westward-ho movement in this country was fueled inpart by religious intolerance experienced by some in the established colonies of PA, VA and MD? The arguments you-all are having here are not new.

If by religious you mean identifyng oneself with a particular religion you may be right. Depends upon the level and type of education of the individual. If you mean faith in the existence of God then I submit you are mistaken.

Uhmmm......care to provide your source on this nugget? No, wait a minute...are you saying intelligent people are materialistic people and therefore are high maintenance?

Fence-sitters? I belong to the school that says agnosticism is actually a more intellectually honest position than atheism which says quite definitely, with no evidence to support the statement, that there is no God and theism which says quite definitely that there is a God. In fact, I suggest to you that one probably ought to live and let live for quite some time before coming out on either side. You might be quite surprised at what life itself and your own experiences will teach you if you keep an open mind and follow your own heart.
Now, my favorite and last quote that went unchallenged is this one by Claudius G.....
.
The most recent scholarsip surrounding Lincoln is that he was NOT and atheist. He was a seeker. He came down on the side of no particular denomination although he at varying times appears to have participated in the liturgical life of more than one Christian church. He was born into a Baptist family. The preponderance of evidence seems to indicate that he believed in God but was not convinced that any partcular religion was the "right" religion. Lincoln's rift with hs father is believed to have had religious roots but that has never been proven.