Id would think, unless the room is really cool, i would rather die.

If atheism propagated deliberate falsehoods about "eternal life" (after you are already dead) and "ask and you shall receive" (but not receive) it would be less depressing.

But atheism does not. Nor does it ask for "offerings" every week.

Atheism doesn't know.

But some people have had near death experiences (NDE) like Don Piper.

Don Piper's explanation of his NDE:
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...t=0&FORM=LKVR1

I'd like that, obviously. I don't know how long I'd like to live for, but I can assure you its not forever.

75 yearsish is a little short though if you ask me, but ill manage.

The key word being "near".

But when? Surely you'd prefer this for the next day or two, over death. See my point? It's only when you realize this will be your existence forever and ever and ever, that sooner or later, you're going to want it to end. Extend the room to 12x12, 25x25, until you get to the entire earth. Eternity is an awfully long time. Now add diminished health, watching everyone else you know die, etc., etc., and it's not too hard to imagine how one might not want to live forever.

I never mentioned eternity. And it is besides the point i was making.

I already said that is not an issue. You will have perfect health for as long as you want to live.

This could be an issue. Though i think i would still want to live.

Who said anything about having to live forever.


My point is pretty simple and it doesn't even need the magic pill. I want to live and i dont want to die. Meaning for me, on some level, not living sucks.

IIRC Piper was dead.

He had 8 people. 4 EMT teams (1 paramedic/1 EMT per team) take his vitals and declare him dead.

Oops, here it is: 4 sets of paramedics
http://donpiperministries.com/theministry.asp

Okay, I'm confused. You're not talking about eternity or living forever, yet you don't want to die?

Is there an alternative to not dying than I'm unaware of that doesn't entail living forever?


Ninja edit:
Sounds like you're saying you just don't want to die now.

I give....

lol

Paramedics and EMTs do not declare people dead. Physicians declare people dead.

When someone is dead, it is a one-way trip. They don't come back, create a dot com website and sell books. They decay.

"On his way home from a church conference in 1989, Don Piper’s Ford Escort was struck head-on by an 18-wheeler. He was killed instantly — pronounced dead by four sets of paramedics. Shortly after the accident, a pastor from the same conference arrived on the scene and began praying for "the man in the red car." God worked a miracle and sent Don back to a now-broken body. To date, 34 surgical procedures have taken place. He walks only as a result of miraculous and in some cases medically unexplainable circumstances. During the time he was dead, Piper was granted the extreme privilege of glimpsing Heaven itself."

lol I gotta say the bold is pretty funny... Science did it(additionally to the healing power of our bodies), but it's all God's miracle...

Now how reliable is the information in the first 2 sentences? Do we have police and paramedic reports we can look at?

btw. I always wonder... where was GOD when this was happening?


Ohhh, now I know.. he was saving life of one individual in America so he had no time for millions of lives of innocent starving children. THAT EXPLAINS EVERYTHING!

When a Christian minister is in a car crash, one of his first thoughts is "How can I work this into the act?"

A pastor who was on that lonely highway behind him, felt called by God to pray over Don's dead body and did so for ninety minutes. Others who were told of the accident, but not of Don's death, also prayed. After an hour and a half, as the pastor prayed over Don's lifeless body, Don began to sing a song!

As you read these carefully crafted phrases, be aware of smoke being forcibly exhaled up your butt:

• A pastor
• lonely highway
• felt called by God
• pray over Don's dead body
• did so for ninety minutes
• Others who were told of the accident, but not of Don's death, also prayed
• After an hour and a half
• as the pastor prayed
• over Don's lifeless body
• Don began to sing a song

"ninety minutes" and "an hour and a half" in the same paragraph

You don't even know the circumstances of what you're arguing over and you think your superficial understanding encompasses the circumstances of his accident and his state's laws on this?

Piper was checked by 4 teams of paramedics and left in his car for dead under a tarp (nobody was rushing him to the hospital) when the other church man came along and prayed and sang over him.

Quote from Piper's book "90 Minutes in Heaven":

"The state law said they had to pronounce me dead officially before they could remove my body from the scene of the accident. Unless they declared me dead, an ambulance would have to transport my body to a hospital. That county didn't have a coroner, but I learned later that a justice of the peace could declare me dead, and then they could remove my body."

Piper wrote also "the collision occurred at 11:45 a.m. The EMTs became so busy working with the others involved, that it was about 1:15 p.m. before they were ready to move me. They checked for a pulse again.

I was still dead."

Read the book before presenting your assumptions like they are facts.

Another quote in case the above wasn't clear enough.

"The EMTs pronounced me dead as soon as they arrived at the scene. They stated that I died instantly."

ehhh... people forget what happened many times, this is pretty much a given. Their memories are so unreliable most of the time they don't remember anything correctly.. What should I believe that people made mistakes and they recalled things incorrectly or that a guy came back from dead because a priest decided to pray and GOD heard his prayers, meanwhile millions pray daily for many serious issues and no prayers come answered....

You don't even recognize the fraud you're arguing over and you think your superficial understanding encompasses the circumstances of his accident and his state's history on having EMTs falsely declare accident victims dead?

video at http://www.ksat.com/news/14867765/detail.html

SAN ANTONIO -- An early Sunday morning collision with a drunken driver injured two women and claimed the life of a third, police said.

At least that's what emergency medical personnel originally thought.

Erica Smith, 23, was riding on Loop 410 with two passengers when the vehicle driven by 28-year-old Jenny Ybarra was driving the wrong way and collided with Smith's vehicle near Loop 410 South and Rigsby Road, police said.

Ybarra was legally intoxicated, police said.

When emergency personnel and police responded to the scene of the crash, a yellow sheet was draped over Smith, a normal practice by EMS at the scene of a fatality.

But when the Bexar County Medical Examiner's Office responded to claim the body, investigators found Smith to still be alive.

EMS was called back to the scene and transported Smith to Brooke Army Medical Center for treatment. Reports indicate up to two hours passed before Smith was taken to the hospital, where she was in critical condition Sunday night.

Ybarra has been charged with three counts of intoxication assault, charges which police said could be upgraded if Smith dies.

The declaration of Smith as a fatality is under review, an EMS spokesperson said.

Thank you Jesus. Another miracle.

But strangely, this one did not have

• A pastor
• lonely highway
• felt called by God
• pray over Don's dead body
• did so for ninety minutes
• Others who were told of the accident, but not of Don's death, also prayed
• After an hour and a half
• as the pastor prayed
• over Don's lifeless body
• Don began to sing a song

Because accident reports leave paper trails.

You're the one who can't keep the cases separate and who didn't bother to check into all the circumstances before venturing a conclusion based on a biased assumption.

Why should anyone bother offering you evidence when you aren't neutral enough to assess it?

Your miracle story is not a miracle.

It is virtually identical to the non-miracle story. The only difference is the lack of pastors pretending to influence the outcome with prayer.

Virtually identical?

You've really lost your critical reasoning faculties now.

The example you gave is not at all identical.

And once again you haven't read the book to be asserting biased assumptions like they are facts.

And once again your case substitution is irrelevant.

If you're studying Piper's case you study his only and base things on the merits of it alone. You don't muddy the waters and bring in a completely irrelevant one because it matches your own bias.

Would you like to discuss critical reasoning faculties?

There was no miracle.

The "reverend" did not witness the gates of heaven.

then we got nothing to talk about. NO EVIDENCE and few EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS won't be taken seriously anywhere..

Ok sorry for being short its just you are frustrating me. Its probably my fault for not being clear. The reason why in my first post i said the pill just lets you live as long as you want to. Is because i realize living forever might not be all its cracked up to be. Id want an off pill.

So yes when i say i dont want to die the alternative is. I dont want to die, i want to live as long as i want to live. Not being able to do that sucks a little.

I enjoyed the clip! I'm not gonna pretend that I don't understand what it's like to not want to die. I'd prefer not to die just yet. That said, if I die tomorrow I would still consider myself to be incredibly lucky. Lucky to have been awake at all. To have experienced consciousness even for the briefest moment in the history of the universe is a privilege. When you get right down to it, what's the difference between living for 30 years, 50 years, 100 years, or 5,000,000 years? It's still just a blink of an eye in the scheme of things. And yes, I do consider the condition of humankind tragic. But so what? There's nothing we can do about it and musing fantasies about living forever are of no help.