I really wish you would stop posting. How about shutting up and actually looking for yourself instead of spouting complete nonsense and acting like a huge prick? Like seriously dude, you'd think instead of puttin all this energy into disproving the truth that you would actually LOOK FOR YOURSELF. It takes way less energy. I didnt put any agrument of my own because it has all already been said, you have been provided with links to further your education and our work here is done. Whether or not you choose to use that info is up to you, your life will be much clearer and less stressful if you just do it....or just continue to be a judgemental cnt about things u have no clue about. Thats cool too

Something I heard recently seemed pretty relevant to this thread. I'll paraphrase. The stories and myths and parables of Eastern traditions suggest that enlightenment is all or nothing. Either you are enlightened or you are not. If you are enlightened, then there was a sharp moment when you became enlightened. These stories are just metaphors, and in some cases there may be better metaphors. The speaker suggested that perhaps the phrase "spiritual enlightenment" should be supplanted by the phrase "spiritual maturity" to reflect the possibility of growth and gradual change, rather than abrupt and complete transformation.

To all of you people who still dont understand, looking at reality cuts straight through all beliefs. Beliefs don't obscure your vision of the computer screen at this very moment, and they couldn't stop you from seeing if there really is an absence of self in everything in this very moment. The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon, dont yell at us for showing you where to look. Close your eyes and see. Otherwise close your mouths because you are so far from the truth it is painful (fishnoob and batair mostly). There is no you to be free, just SEE it.

What if you're wrong?

Its a good question, and one that still pops up for me. But its not some faith based thing, or believing cos others said so. You look at the evidence, and see what fits. And the evidence is that there is no I

what neeeel said,

you ask that question every single day and see what answer you can come up with.
You bring out every single point thats thrown against you, EVERYTHING, like "what if this is all a load of nonsense?" "what if its a new belief?" "what if RT is a cult?" "what if ive been hypnotized?"and really look, actually look, not just figure it out or justify to yourself why its wrong, you look, to see what answers come up.
You even try and forget it, try and forget it ever happened, and see what happens.
Not only all this, but theres something else too, science, science backs up what we say, its nothing mystical or hocus pocusy, as a matter of fact the concept of no self is actually 1000s of years old.
But no Im still not going let science be the one and only truth, no, looking for yourself is the only way to see this one, with raw ****ing honesty, nothing else.


Im sure some day, neuron experts will come up with a way of isolating this problem of self, and with that enlightenment will no longer be something out of reach or the "answer to the universe" or any bull****, no itll probably be just a normal standard ****ing thing you get sorted when you're a child.

Look at the way people saw something like a solar eclipse 1000s of years ago, as if it was some sort of mystical message from the Gods, now they know, its just the sun being blocked by the moon.
I reckon the same will happen with enlightenment, itll just end up being a casual "yea....this connection here in the brain needs to be zapped", on a par with getting your tonsils out.

I wouldnt be surprised if this **** happened in our lifetime, given the advances in technology and laser treatment these days.

Whereas Fishnoob is doing the polar opposite, he is not looking, he is just doing everything in his power to argue and debate his way out of this.

And I cant believe I got sucked into the argument too, lolgossip arrived here and called a ****ing spade a spade, hence fishnoob put him on "ignore" (afaik anyway, maybe he didnt)

I'm not really talking about the experience - I'm talking to those who like to speculate about the thinking of those who reject their claims. Labeling people lazy, scared, brainwashed, unwilling, etcetera perhaps we've looked and seen the evidence and come to the correct conclusion - yet different from theirs. Maybe it's them who doesn't u derstand, not me.

The fool has said in his heart "there is no chance I'm mistaken".

and keep letting it pop up man, embrace the question, treat the question as if its actually the truth, and see what holds up. Never ever try and convince yourself that you cracked it, do the opposite and see what happens.

Ok, so If you have looked, and seen there is an I, will you explain where and what it is, and how you know it exists? Maybe its all in the definition of I( ie we are using 2 different definitions). Maybe I am wrong. I would like to know.

I think the self is a composite entity - made up of a body, thoughts, goals, a career, history, dreams, etcetera. The sum of all of those is me.

There's no little man sitting in my head pulling levers, obviously.

so you'd agree its just a concept and nothing more? Thats kind of what you are saying in this post.

Do you treat it as more than a concept?

What isn't just a concept? It has physical constituents (my legs, for example).

To answer this for ade: A live body can type posts. A dead body makes zero posts. What's the difference? Alive and dead obviously. So instead of saying it's just a body living life.

It would be more accurate to say it's Life living life.

Profoundly and significantly different if you'll allow it.

edit: and I capitalize L in Life on purpose, signifying a divine thing

That's a very good definition of self, bunny. Consider:

You have a body, you have thoughts, you have goals, you have a career, you have a story, you have dreams.

You have those things. You are not fundamentally, in essence, those things.

You've had a career, you're not the career. You've lived a history; but, you're not the story.

First step in awakening is to see how we have identified as the self. But, truly the self is just a coat we wear. We, me, you are not the coat.

I cant be wrong. There is no me to be wrong.

True in a sense. When you look within, you can see, somewhat, without beliefs. That's why focusing on your breath is so important when you do this, because bringing your focus to your breath takes your focus out of your mind, and makes the mind, to a degree, inactive. But, consider this when looking at outward reality...
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All speaking, all thoughts, all activities, everything you do, communicates an EFFECT of what you have allowed to make a home in your mind.

An example: a man sits down in a cafe to a cup of coffee and to read a newspaper. About 1/3 of the way through his coffee, a waitress comes over and picks up his cup. The man says angrily at her, "What the F#ck, I wasn't done with that yet!"

Now let's see this event from the waitress's point of view. A man in a nice suit walks in and you bring him a cup of coffee with a saucer beneath the cup. You see him drinking his coffee and reading his newspaper and notice the last time he set his cup down, some sloshed over the side and went into the saucer. You realize the next time he goes to take a drink, coffee will drip down onto his nice suit. You bring him a new cup in one hand and first pick up his old cup with your free hand and then he yells at you.

Here we have an event. Why did the man experience the event the way he did? You might say, well, it was just a misunderstanding. Yes, that would be a word to characterize the event on a whole; but, why did he experience reality the way he did?

Because there is a difference between what happens in the world and the mind's interpretation of those events. He had within his self a bunch of stuff that he expressed when triggered by the waitress. He didn't see the event clearly because a bunch of stuff in him was in the way. He perceived reality through his stuff and reacted accordingly.
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Use a more personal example, Why do you experience your interactions with MtFishNoob the way you do and express to him what you did? Because that event is being seen through all the stuff you hold in your self mind and is being expressed through all the stuff you hold in your self mind.

Remember the feelings you had when you read his posts. Did he put them in you? No, his actions triggered them within you and they were there, in you, all along. And you see events through all that stuff that does indeed obscure your vision and becomes the reality that you see.

I read deep into this forum but it's 50 pages lol so I got to page 10 and boy all was really helpful and I agree with mostly everything you say, but I think you got this twisted. A Buddhist is aware of this, he knows he can't control anything actually, it's about not letting your emotions and thoughts control you, and you don't just do that because it's said to be done, no you actually have to experiment with these morals and find out why attaching to emotions and thoughts usually leads to only temporary happiness. We see that in poker, going on tilt makes you lose a lot of chips and better players learn not to be controlled by this angry emotion. Once we are aware of the destructive effects it has on the Bankroll, the brain learns that going on tilt is useless and therefor are not controlled by the emotion.

The amount of hypocrisy is ridiculous... 'lol_gossip'

You want me to look, but there is no me that can look right? Look where? Because I have studied every concept in this thread much long ago... psychology and philosophy wise... and I have spent a **** load of time with self awareness and self mastery, I guarantee my pain threshold would be ridiculously higher, even pain is false, it is communication from one part of self, to another- the same goes with thoughts. The mistake is that you have assumed previously in your life, that you are not the pain, you are the 'feeling' - when it is obvious that we are both the pain, and the feeling, and we are also even the knife which stabs on a grander scale, but I don't think you guys have grasped this yet... You learned about self- which usually happens in infancy- and now you have realised that your perception of self is not 100% true, that is all.

I conclude- there is some type of skitzo development in the minds that need this 'cure' - of looking and seeing that self is not distinct- I don't llike the word skitzo but I don't know how else to describe... most atheist minds recognise that self= energy and thoughts are material, but tehy don't realise that the material itself is meta physical, it is objective thought which has turned the truth into the bull****, making bull**** the new truth.

The observers do not see this for they only observe one direction and what they see is of their own experience. Everybody knows that a self exists, defining that self as some kind of metaphysical soul- is becoming a rarer and rarer thing, it is primative, but at the same time- one needs to realise that light is metaphysical and this is the building block of everything relative that came out og the 0d singularity- 'here'. Then, once the obvious is stated, the egos are hurt, because it is not so great or special anymore, so they come out with ' Knowing isn't enough, you have to LOOK, and SEE, and then you get this FEELING, and now everyone else is DIFFERENT, and the world is DIFFERENT'

No, It is already known that self= body and thought, and I= identity and ego

ID and ego have a purpose, it is a form language, it improves our function as a species. Seperating yourself and disregarding the natural order- is only hindering your development

'what if you are wrong?'

Doesn't matter, you will just likely be defined 'less successful' and your rollercoaster of experience, will become a nice gentle boredom.

fair enough I may have showed ignorance to buddhism, Im reading a little more these days to get my head around their **** , and it just seems they do things the opposite way around to what Ive done.

BUT anyway , keep reading!! And let us know what you think. (its long alright)

Whose legs ? Thats the bit we're talking about, you are expressing ownership over the legs, what is this ownership?

cool cool ill keep reading, this stuff is really more easy to understand then Buddhism. I would suggest if you like to dwell deeper into Buddhism I would suggest you don't listen to modern Buddhism as what it has grown too is not even close to what it's roots are.

If you like to read I suggest "Buddhism plain and simple" you can find a e-book probably for "free" online, it really explains a lot as it's only the very foundation of Buddhism before the image of today's Buddhism took it's place. Most of what you hear and read is all a misconception of real Buddhism and it's sad because it's the most popular form of Buddhism today.

Self does not exist in reality, but saying there is no self also doesn't fit in reality, because it doesn't explain reality so really there is no explaining reality what so ever. Not ideas, not concepts, not thoughts, nor anything will never explain reality, the only way we can know reality is to awaken and flow with reality, this is truth. Words, Concepts are only tools to awakening, we can leave the tools once we used them.

put simply
Concepts are frozen though useful they don't fit realities flux and we shouldn't be glued to them, it is only access baggage.
Reality is fluid and to be in sync we have to drop all concepts.

The composite entity. Like the dot in the letter i.

Putting aside the profundities of Buddhism for the moment, there is a human being who posts here under the name PairTheBoard. The human being PairTheBoard has various attributes, features, characteristics, and has a history. PairTheBoard does not "own" these attributes, features, and characteristics any more than a car "owns" its windshield.

PairTheBoard is a self regulating, self guiding, self controlling living being. PairTheBoard does not require a constant stream of instructions to tell him what he is to be doing. PairTheBoard conducts his own operations. He does not randomly flail his arms and legs about, with neurons firing randomly in his brain. He conducts himself, guides himself, and controls himself according to purposes he determines for himself.

Science tells us there is no central location in PairTheBoard's brain which acts as the "controller" for the rest of the brain. Nevertheless, PairTheBoard operates under PairTheBoard's self regulating, self guiding, self control. Evidently, PairTheBoard as a whole being controls PairTheBoard as a whole being. The whole controls the whole. I think a decent analogy for this kind of control is the way a jazz band jams. The band need have no leader, no conductor, no sheet music, nor even a basic melody to work off of. Each player responds to the music being played by the entire band. The band as a whole conducts the band as a whole. The music the band plays guides the music the band plays. The band is self directing.


One feature of PairTheBoard is a highly complex self referencing dynamical neural system massively imbued with feedback loops and integrated with all of PairTheBoard's body. Two phenomenon arise from the whole of this dynamic integrated complexity. Self control and self awareness - or consciousness. The human being PairTheBoard is aware of being the human being PairTheBoard. And in that self awareness, the human being PairTheBoard is aware of at least some of his self regulating, self directing capacity for self control.

The human being who posts here under the name PairTheBoard exists. I am that human being.


PairTheBoard

Welcome back and well said.