Im not uncomfortable with sitting in a chair and engaging my thoughts and experiencing the nothing. I prefer the beach. Or doing it to fall asleep. I just dont know if nothing is nothing.

You notice you can engage your thoughts. Good.

Can you notice that, when thoughts arise, that you also are able to not engage them? Or, even to disengage in the middle of them? And that they just float away without the focus of your engagement?

Ive said more then once i know what is like to not engage my thoughts. I push them away every time they are racing and i need to sleep.

Sure. Though, as I said, it's context dependent so sometimes I'll group many such entities together and refer to them as "me".
the self being a set of properties? One of them includes "is asleep".
It would be unusual but yeah, nothing in principle against it - I can't really think of a situation when I'd feel it appropriate though.

Meh, pushing them away is engaging them.

Look at engagement like a hose between you and the thoughts. You, by engagement, by the focus of your attention, give energy to, thoughts. Also, You, are able to, by not focusing the attention of your awareness on thoughts, withhold energy from them and they float away, unenergized, unengaged. You can control the hose that gives the thoughts energy.

When a thought arises and you focus on it, such a thought as, aj is such a fu....and when you move your attention to something else in the middle of it, the thought just floats away, unfinished. Next time you sit quietly in meditation, you should be able to see this engagement/non engagement. Just play with it. Explore it.

You. Engage. Thoughts. You are not the thoughts.

everything is physical. there is also an out there. there is also in there. an infinite loop. live your life, you are god

I have seen the engagement/non engagement.

I give though. Im going to start getting mad if i keep posting in here.

If someone wants to chat about this with me, just PM me your ICQ number or skype name.

Oh I do!!! I do!!!

.

Heh Bat I feel your frustration. It isnt easy dealing with nihilists - cos to them nothing exists. You have to keep pinching yourself to prove that you do eh?

However, what you pinch will cease to exist one day and indeed ceases to exist every 7 years (every 7 years every cell in your body is renewed). So what we are talking about is non permancey; not whether we exist or not!

They are right that what we think we are does not exist (in the long term) the real “I” is not our body or our mind - but our spirit, our eternal indestructible spirit; a spark from God; like a child of God.

The body will die, the mind will cease to exist, the subtle mind will cease to exist but we will live forever, for the real “I” is spirit.

This forum is good as it brings together seekers and those that seek are higher than the highest point of the Maslow's hierarchy of needs: self actualisation. For seekers are looking for self-transcendence and this is the highest state of being in this human body – so all is good.

Thats not whats frustrating me. It feels like they are not reading my post and understanding my view at the heart of it. Which is probably my fault.

If all is nothing or there is no I. Meh..i still got to get up and work tomorrow so i can eat.
See to me your making a similar argument to them that i have as hard of a time seeing. The I is not in the mind, it is somewhere outside it. They just make it disappear altogether.


But yeah. Even if i get pissy its good to have a bunch of people looking at each others views about existence and stuff. I wish they would keep going. I liked reading it.

Hi stu stu, you're right, maybe an attitude change is needed when on forums like this that isnt Ruthless Truth, i guess its easy forget. Even on RT, I notice a trend of questioning getting more popular than just shouting down "there is no you". Cause it forces people to be challenge ideas like you say, without them being just told something.

however its worth noting that sometimes this polite 'be true to yourself' style approach does nothing.

Look, overall the tone on RT is a little "shocking" to some, why? well firstly people , especially americans get a little more taken aback by swearing than other nationalities, but also because alot of the type of people that end up there have had their egos caressed and nurtured their whole life. So sometimes a swift kick up the ass is needed. But yea fair enough, we're not on RT now.
So its best we respect the tone of this place.

Look batair, seriously do you not see what neeeel is saying?

Why must you keep insisting on the same argument over and over again, that the thought is real.

Yes the bloody thought is real, the thought of santa is real, the thought of your car is real, the thought of self is real.

Santa is not real, look at the car, it is real, the self is not real.

Just say I beleived in Santa, even if you and me took a trip all around the world looking for Santa Clause so you could prove to me that he doesnt exist you would never be able to show me for certain, it would be up to me to decide whether hes real or not.

Maybe, just maybe , after that world tour looking for Santa from the North pole to checking every chimney in the world looking for evidence it might just click in my head that Santa is not real. It just might.
But you could never show me he is not real, never. How can show me it?? You can only hope that I come to a reasonable conclusion that the concept of Santa is a load of nonsense.

I can never show you the self is not real, never, I cant prove to you that something doesnt exist. I dont believe in God, but I cant prove to you he doesnt exist.
You have to look at it yourself.

I get it. The thought is real, what the thought is of is not. You separate the thing thought about form the thought. But since they are one and the same. It doesn't work. Its like saying the thought of a car is real, but the thought of a car is not real.

Fwiw either way. All i have ever said is the thought of a car is real. Which means we were agreeing all along.

It is better to express what you feel in your own words and maybe people will see what you mean Vs. just telling them to see something a particular way.

And "be true to yourself" is not a style or approach. It is a saying I use. It has very little to do with an ideology. It is meant to "protect" your pov. You should never let anyone choose how you think (that's what it means to me).


I do understand that the tone of RT is different than the tone here (and it has a purpose over there). That kind of attitude here though probably won't work.

Exactly

But why dont you elaborate here, this is what you've been saying all along, "I am my thoughts", so you are saying the self is a thought, and no more than that is this correct?
Do you not see the similarities between saying this and saying the self is a belief?

And if you do, then why dont you think you will be amnesiac if you see it truly as just a belief?

People get past beliefs all the time. Why is the belief of self a 'must keep'?

what do you think about the 12 chinese animals

I dont know anything about them, why? cut to the chase , what are you getting at?
If I thought people used the 12 chinese animals as means of feeding their egos, or were using them to hurt people, or feel sorry for themselves or any of that kinda stuff, then Id probably be just as vocal about the non existence of the 12 Chinese animals.

This just shows that you have totally and utterly missed the point of what they were saying

So you believe that the I is somehere outside the mind? where? what proof do you have of this?

Amnesiac--

Play with this. Imagine you woke up this morning as a total amnesiac. You don't remember anything you've ever done. You don't remember any experiences you've ever had. You don't remember the story of your life. You don't remember any conclusions you had reasoned out. You don't remember any beliefs you used to hold. Your mind is inactive, quiet. And you just sit up in bed and look at the bedroom around you...

That which is aware and looking out of the eyes is...............

YOU.

-----------------
If you ponder that and play with it, you may see many aspects of the ego self that were previously hidden.

When one lives as the egoic self, the intellect is their master. However, the intellect can be the humble servant of the awakened one.

No... i dont want to put more effort into elaborating my view.
Considering your busting on my reading comprehension. You need to read my post more closely.

Ok Im not exactly sure what you are saying but you seem to be equating the idea that the I is somewhere outside of the mind to the idea that the I doesnt exist. This doesnt make sense to me


Also

What do you mean they are one and the same. How can the thought of a car be the same as a car? You are just being dense here, or really not trying.

It is nothing like saying the thought of a car is real, but the thought of a car is not real. It seems like you have the idea that the thought of something is the something

repeating myself again( hopefully it will eventually get through, its a simple concept)

You see a car in the street. You have a thought about that car( eg "nice car" "its red" whatever).

The thought is real, it exists in your mind/brain/whatever. Also, the car is real, it exists as a physical object in reality.

Someone says to you, " think of an invisible pink unicorn". You have a thought about the invisible pink unicorn.(eg u imagine its nice spirally horn)

The thought is real, it exists in your mind/brain/whatever. The invisible pink unicorn isnt real, it doesnt exist as a physical object in reality.

Jeez its so simple.......

There was a man named Jerry who lived for 40 years. And one day Jerry had a realization, There is no I. And Jerry said, I am enlightened. And now he saw trees a bit differently, he appreciated birds more, the sky was much more majestic to him. It was almost as if he was a different person and so he gave himself a new name and called himself Roger.

And Roger went about appreciating the beauty of his surroundings. But, whenever Roger interacted with other people, he was unaware that it was the 40 year old Jerry doing all the talking.