I've been practicing stoicism for about 2 years now and have really enjoyed it, and I've seen a TON of benefits/progress. 2 months ago I joined an online stoa and we meet once a month (so only twice so far) and it has been great.

However I would like to meet even more often, and with different people/more people on the topic of stoicism and was curious if there were any virtual groups you guys knew of that practiced? (Even groups that just talk about the theory work for me)

Do you guys know of any modern day stoas?

(I know about stoicon and will be attending once I feel covid has died down enough, and for in person stoas I live in northern Idaho right next to Spokane WA, and haven't been able to find any local groups which is why I've been searching so hard for virtual ones)

Can you describe some of the benefits/progress?

So some things I've been doing are true old school stoic ideas. Other things are rooted in stoicism but technically modern day cognitive behavioral therapy techniques. And others are just general ideas that are similar, but I can share some things.

1.) For almost 2 years now I've been meditating daily. It has reduced anxiety, increased mindfulness, and has REALLY helped me in "accepting" things.

2.) I take a daily Scottish shower (and do a monthly polar plunge during winter months). I've been doing that for 2 years. The benefits of that are learning how to catch your breath, and the idea of easy hard, hard easy (basically by voluntarily doing hard things, you build confidence, so when you're forced to do hard things, they actually seem easy....this helps me a lot in business when running into obstacles/challenges)

3.) I practice negative visualization. This helps with all sorts of things, like fear and anxiety and confidence.

4.) I intermittent fast (I eat between 4pm and 10pm only). And I also do a 40+ hour fast once a week. This helps with discipline, and there's some studies that show that fasting is healthy for you (raising your HGH level etc.)

I'm not an expert and I don't know enough, so I can't say if this is "healthy" or not...but what I can say is at my fattest I was 215 pounds. When I started IF I was 196 pounds. It's been 2 years now and at the beginning of this month I was 175 pounds. So I lost the weight, and have kept it off. Plus the time I save only preparing 1 meal a day has been NICE! (not to mention the power I have over food now, it used to have power over me)

5.) I practice outcome independence. So if I'm trying to do something (like play a poker tournament) all I do is focus on playing the best I can. I no longer "care" if I win/lose/bust on the bubble, etc. Now my whole pro career (14 years) I said I did that, but deep down I did "care" about my results. Whereas now I don't give a **** at all (granted I only play now as a hobby, but even in things like business, landing a new account for vending, or getting a good deal on a real estate transaction, I give 0 ****s about the result)

6.) I also work daily on remembering all things are temporary (even life) so I'll think things like, "when I kiss my wife, I'm kissing a mortal" (that line is 100% stolen lol)...but I do it and it helps me keep in mind the temporary nature of existence (right now I still fear death, but I can tell I'm getting closer to no longer caring, AND almost everything else in life, like my house, my businesses, my friendships, I've accepted that someday I won't have them and no longer worry/stress/fear about losing them) It really has been a huge weight off my shoulders.

7.) I practice daily positive self talk. Having a "friend" instead of an "*******" talking to yourself is REALLY nice.

8.) I practice exposure therapy daily for things I fear (right now working on snakes/spiders)...seems silly, but ANY fear I have I do it, and eventually it goes completely away which is nice.



Basically 2 years ago I was playing poker in the evenings/weekends. Working on my rental business during daytime during the week. And any spare second I got I was building my vending business. Plus I have a wife/daughter, and have other hobbies I enjoy. I finally "took a break" from poker (didn't play a single hand for 20 months) and had time in the evening/weekend to do other things. I spent it on sort of a self improvement kick.

The biggest/most important changes I've found have all been rooted in stoicism, so that's why I'm looking for a place to talk/discuss/think about it more. Basically trying to find like minded people

Derren Brown (the magician) is very into stoicism, and he's written a book about it ("Happy", I think?). I haven't read it and don't know anything more about it, but I believe he talked a bit about it when he was on Joe Rogan.




At least I think he talked about it on Rogan! But I do know he talked about it with Sam Harris on his podcast:

https://samharris.org/podcasts/143-keys-mind/




(Irrelevant aside: Both Rogan and Harris have in common asking their guests whether they've tried psychedelics!)

what do stoics think happens after death?

Thanks for taking the time. I find it interesting and I have a friend who does the same although I don't think he thinks of it as Stoicism. Personally, I'm a little too hedonistic to be a stoic

Stoics are all about pursuing truth....so my guess would be they'd admit that we don't know what happens when you die.

There's nothing wrong with hedonism as long as it's paired with wisdom and temperance. (basically you need to be wise about what you indulge in, and make sure to moderate it)

In fact, learning to live without makes you appreciate the spices of life even more.

I found the book “The Obstacle is the Way” to be fascinating. As a Buddhist, I find a lot of similarities between Buddhism and stoicism.

I'm assuming you mean objective truth because I would assume most people try to pursue their own truth.

how do you know if the truth you are pursing is objective or not.

also, what is the point of practicing stoicism if there is no pursuit of truth regarding life after our bodily death? to make our current lives easier to live?

Because believing there is some weird life after death is much harder than just living the life you have.

What's a good example of your own truth?
What is something that is "true for you" but not for someone else (if that is what you mean)?

What kind of meditation do you do?

I read William Irvine's A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy several years ago and enjoyed it. I have a naturally phlegmatic disposition, so Stoic principles and heuristics of emotional regulation are both useful (especially for poker players!) and relatively easy for me to implement. However, I find its account of the good life too narrow and overly focused on the intellect to adopt solely as my own.

Still looking for a stoa, OP? I recently began looking for virtual meetups and found that a few groups here in the Bay Area are running monthly online meetups. Happy to share some links if you'd like. I'd also be interested in discussing books, etc. over Skype or Zoom or whatever if we can get a few people together - I know there are other Stoics here. I've mostly focused on the works of Epictetus and Seneca but just picked up Lives of Eminent Philosophers by Diogenes Laertius and will begin studying that in the coming months.

Better roll that one back. Every case of addiction, every instance of denial, repression, evasion, delusion, self-deception is against that idea. A human being sits at a poker table with an array of conflicts, secrets and "demons" within. It radically affects behavior. Psych coach is a good thing.

I would say that seeking community is antithetical to the value of stoicism.

Stoicism is about "fasting from the world", rebelling against the "inner protector", and building resilience. It becomes salient when the individual begins to realize that he is living in a counterfeit paradise.

Let me share an analogy that I thought of recently. Think of a time when you were at a pool party. There is a change of consciousness, a differing aspect of mind, when your head is above the water of the pool compared to when your head is below the surface.

Try to remember that experience of when you dip down below the surface of the water. Think about how in that moment our individualism becomes more distinct from the group, how the conversation of the group becomes more distant, how our awareness turns inward, and how we access more of our intuition and less of the chattering mind. When we come out from under the water and up for air, then we re-enter back into that other aspect of mind.

Stoicism is about entering into the aspect of mind like when we dip down below the surface of the water at the pool party. There should be an element of moving away from community and society into the direction of individualism.

Now, I think what happens is that people see the truth contained within stoicism, but then they don't know what to do next. Stoicism is not an end state in itself. You want to use it within the pursuit of status. Of course, the pursuit of status is not the end state either, but one step at a time.

I disagree. Cooperation, community, and neighborliness are central tenets of the Stoic ethos. In Meditations, Marcus Aurellius uses the word Koinos -- which translates roughly to "shared in public" or "shared in common" -- over eighty times. Allêlôn -- which translates to "for one another" or "to each other" -- is used twenty-six times in Meditations and over twenty times in Seneca's Discourses.

I disagree with this as well. Virtually every Stoic philosopher suggested the exact opposite, that Stoicism is about accepting the world exactly as it is and engaging with rather seeking respite from it, and that tranquility is the result of one's choices and judgements rather than one's environment.

Again, this is the opposite of what the Stoics advocated:

There is an often overlooked part of the Sermon on the Mount in which Jesus says, "Take no oath."

There is a mindset that says, "I am a Stoic, so I read the authority figures and follow the teachings in a top-down manner."

There is another mindset that doesn't proclaim but acts out the following: "I am a follower of Truth, so I am in dialogue with Stoicism but I discern the truth in a bottom-up way."

I would argue that the latter is more in line with the spirit of Stoicism. Be in dialogue with Stoicism. Make it dynamic rather than static. Make it your own.

I agree with the necessity to engage with the world. That is what the pursuit of status does to the highest degree. Embrace the paradox.

I just want to clarify. All of this pro social behavior has already been well integrated into modern society. It is contained within the average child’s socialization experience.

I have no issue undermining the desire for community because it is so well established and preserved. The reason I am undermining it because it is universally addictive, and like with any addiction, its effect becomes insufficient and the need/attachment increases.

If that were not true, then there would be no need for many of the most valuable practices within Stoicism. We could just be one of the sheep and exist in bliss. Since that is not the case, it is essential that we be properly paranoid of all of the addictive half measures.. like the desire for community.

I only got into stoicism about a month and a half ago, but have been fascinated by it and feel like it ties in well to my background in yoga/meditation.

If some time of e-group gets off the ground, you can count me in.

Just popping back in, I apologize.

How does a stoic differ from a realist? Feel free to direct me to a post number in this thread if I missed it.

I'll give an answer based on what I think you mean by a realist.

I would say that someone who identifies with Stoicism would be slightly less bad at problem solving, less prone to give up, and more in touch with the part of themselves that is associated with faith, which is most evident in the willingness to sacrifice.

Both have accepted some hard truths about life/the world to some degree, but the realist is in conflict with the dreamer mindset. The realist hasn't forgiven or reconciled with that mindset due to painful experiences of the past, and as a result is too quick to give up agency and go into suppression mode when faced with the incovenient truth and building self hatred associated with insignificance, unmet expectations, and unrealized potential.

Reconciliation has to be initiated by the realist mindset -- that side needs to take responsibility first since it is now mostly in control -- but the dreamer mindset has to sacrifice and reconcile as well in order to maintain trust and relationship. First, the realist mindset stops giving in and giving up agency, stops suppressing the harder truths. And then the dreamer mindset has to stop being deceived and seduced by half measures being sold to the naive as final solutions. Stoicism tries to address both aspects.

See, the dreamer mindset holds a vision of the promised land and is furious at the realist mindset when it develops the pattern of giving up with the justification of "this is just how it is and nothing can be done". The realist mindset is more in touch with truth and becomes furious at the dreamer mindset for making naive promises, getting hopes up, and having it end in heartbreak.

Stoicism attracts those who have begun to intuit, almost always by being backed into a corner of last resort, that the two need to reconcile.

Could you clarify what you mean when you refer to "the pursuit of status"?

Why is meditating on death such a central aspect of Stoicism? Why did Socrates emphasize accepting death? Why did Jesus mention "tasting death"? Why is the inevitability of death a core teaching of Buddhism?

There is a perennial pattern in which the pursuit of status is a key part.

Several hundred thousand years ago our ancient ancestors were preyed upon by saber-toothed cats. They were terrorized and traumatized so deeply by these cats that all they saw was death. When we think about these cats, we can, in a state of relative calmness and stability, picture the details of their shape and how we would hunt them if there was conflict. But our ability to do this didn't just happen naturally.

Our ancient ancestors who were preyed upon couldn't do this. The idea of turning the tables and hunting the cats wasn't part of their consciousness. Once the cats came into awareness, this elicited an overwhelming fear response, and then a flight response. That was the game.

Every once in a while one of our ancestors would hesitate. Instead of instantly fleeing from the danger, they would intuitively hear the call to play a bigger game and hold their ground. Often, they would get eaten and be cautionary tales for the majority who flee from death.

Eventually, one of our ancestors didn't just go to the edge of the known, familiar, safe territory and stop at the edge of death where the cats reside, but he connected deeply with his inner hero mindset (the dreamer mindset I previously referred to) and this hero mindset seeks status and holds visions of paradise. He went deeper into death.

As he went deeper into death, the resistance increased and he had to dig deeper with his anti-hero mindset. In doing so, he encountered the darker aspects of himself through the desire for power, vengeance, and justice. The resistance became too much and he came apart, retreating back to the tribe.

When he returned to the tribe, his desire for power remained and he became an oppressive tyrant to the rest of the tribe. After a while, an uprising occurred and he was killed. This was a time before language but still the collective memory of this event was preserved in order to prevent it from happening again.

Meanwhile, the cats continued to prey on the tribe. Later, another individual answers the call and moves toward the direction of where the cats reside. However, this time, with the collective memory of the past, the rest of the tribe alienates this individual. Alienation often meant death, so this individual had to make the choice between short term security or risk death for the sake of staying connected to the call of truth to play a bigger game. The individual couldn't verbalize all of this to himself but he felt it all through sense experience.

He lived in isolation, deprivation, fear, insecurity, and shame, yet he continued to stay connected to the highest truth and highest aspiration. The resistance grew but he stood his ground until the inner tension all at once dissipated. All of a sudden, he became much less fearful of the cats and a new idea popped into his consciousness. It was the idea of weaponry and the idea to kill the cats.

Cut back to the tribe who has long since written off our hero as dead and forgotten, another cautionary tale. One day out of nowhere, our hero emerges from a distance, bloodied and dragging the carcass of a saber-toothed cat that he recently killed. Our hero becomes the legend of legends and variations of his story are preserved to this day.

On the other hand, there are other explanations for how our ancient ancestors developed the capacity to make weapons and turn the tables on predators. These explanations, such as the impact that cooking meat had on increased caloric intake and increased brain size, probably make more sense and therefore become more mainstream. However, these explanations don't speak to us the way that the story I told does. We don't dream about them in the way that we do the story of our hero.

So which is more true? What makes us feel more alive, what calls to us? Or what makes sense to us?

Back to the practice of meditating on death in Stoicism. That practice speaks to us and calls us toward a bigger game. However, the explanations given for why we should do it are a completely separate thing.

You asked me to clarify what I mean by the pursuit of status, seemingly motivated, at least in part, to help make better sense of it. What I am trying to do with this response is to get you to focus less on making sense of it and instead connect with the perennial pattern. Hope that helps.

A very famous belief back in the roman empire ages. Read some books about seneca.