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Old 02-13-2019, 08:33 AM   #26
nohands
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Re: 500 More Just In One State

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Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
On what basis do you believe he is a "great theologian"? And to what extent and on what basis do you believe that this is a representative position in the space of Catholic thought? Furthermore, on what basis is he a "subject matter expert"?
Other priests referred to him as a great theologian and I used the term subject matter expert and theologian loosely. I don't know what the qualifications are for theologian but he has a ton of similar talks and written books. I like him because he comes across as intelligent and cuts right to the heart of the issue.

He is not someone who that everyone who is Catholic who is going to agree with and many will emotionally oppose him, particularly the modernists within the Church.

To my knowledge, everything he speaks on aligns to Catholic teachings or what Saints have said.
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:42 AM   #27
spanktehbadwookie
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Re: 500 More Just In One State

Did you see the report on the Baptists. The world of religious authority gaining automatic trust appears to be ending in the resounding cry of people they traumatized.
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Old 02-13-2019, 02:01 PM   #28
Aaron W.
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Re: 500 More Just In One State

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I don't know what the qualifications are for theologian but he has a ton of similar talks and written books. I like him because he comes across as intelligent and cuts right to the heart of the issue.
These are statements that conservative Christians make about people like Ken Ham. There are also flat earthers out there that have their own set of people that they put a lot of stock in and invite to conferences and write books and so forth.

So I find this to be a relatively unconvincing source and your position about it to be found wanting. It's doubly so because you shifted from the plural in your original statement and then have now backed off to the singular, and have only pointed to resources that this specific individual has made. Both of the videos you linked to are also the product of the foundation that this particular individual runs. Slick-ish looking YouTube videos don't equate to quality content.

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He is not someone who that everyone who is Catholic who is going to agree with and many will emotionally oppose him, particularly the modernists within the Church.
It's interesting to me that you say that many will "emotionally" oppose him, as if that is the only reason to disagree with him. This tells me more about your particular biases in what you assume about others.

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To my knowledge, everything he speaks on aligns to Catholic teachings or what Saints have said.
Specific to your statements here: Please show me where specifically Catholic teachings warn against effeminate men or where the Saints have spoken about effeminate men as a specific type of problem.

I would assert (but can be proven wrong) that it would be entirely possible to say that effeminate men are NOT a problem and be consistent with Catholic teachings and things the Saints have said.

So everything about your position seems fairly weak.
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Old 02-13-2019, 10:58 PM   #29
nohands
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Re: 500 More Just In One State

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So I find this to be a relatively unconvincing source and your position about it to be found wanting. It's doubly so because you shifted from the plural in your original statement and then have now backed off to the singular, and have only pointed to resources that this specific individual has made. Both of the videos you linked to are also the product of the foundation that this particular individual runs. Slick-ish looking YouTube videos don't equate to quality content.
Here's the pope about the issue: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...e-francis-says

Fr. Ripperger is an ordained priest and exorcist. Although not close to as credible as the pope I think he goes into a bunch of detail and has a lot of knowledge on the subjects.

Saints aren't around to comment and I don't think the Church will say how they messed up so I think knowledgeable priest are the next best thing to gain insight.

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It's interesting to me that you say that many will "emotionally" oppose him, as if that is the only reason to disagree with him. This tells me more about your particular biases in what you assume about others.
I'd agree with you that I'm biased to some extent. Full disclosure I'm attend a Parrish that celebrates only the Traditional Latin Mass. Can go into the differences if needed, it's more than just the language and thinking people are effeminate

But I don't think my bias should influence someone that digs in to form their own conclusion.

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Specific to your statements here: Please show me where specifically Catholic teachings warn against effeminate men or where the Saints have spoken about effeminate men as a specific type of problem.
Saint Paul says, "Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God" - 1Corinthians 9-10

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Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
I would assert (but can be proven wrong) that it would be entirely possible to say that effeminate men are NOT a problem and be consistent with Catholic teachings and things the Saints have said.
I'm not here to prove anything really and don't claim to be an expert. I know that you can poke holes and invalidate everything I mention.

Fr.Isaac Mary Relyea is another one I like (you can go to 17:45 where he talks about effeminacy) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmzjiR2GyDk

St. Thomas Aquinas defines effeminacy as a man that “readily yields to the touch” and who is “ready to forsake a good on account of difficulties which he cannot endure.”

My logic is effeminate men give into their disordered passions and short term pleasure in stead of submitting to gods will. Because the Church has ordained these type of priests disordered acts are happening.
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:56 PM   #30
Aaron W.
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Re: 500 More Just In One State

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Uhhhh... That's the Pope on half of the things you brought up.

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There is a strong homosexual problem within the Church and have been infested with effeminate men.
The Pope's position on gay leaders in the church wasn't the thing I found odd. It was this "infested with effeminate men" thing.

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Saints aren't around to comment and I don't think the Church will say how they messed up so I think knowledgeable priest are the next best thing to gain insight.
Do you see the irony of this statement? The Church won't say how they messed up, so the next best thing is someone in the church. You simultaneously want to reject that the Church is an authority to speak into the situation while also holding that your spokesperson is in good standing with the Church. If you really wanted to go down this path, you should have found someone that's been defrocked. This is just empty posturing.

Quote:
I'd agree with you that I'm biased to some extent. Full disclosure I'm attend a Parrish that celebrates only the Traditional Latin Mass. Can go into the differences if needed, it's more than just the language and thinking people are effeminate

But I don't think my bias should influence someone that digs in to form their own conclusion.
That's fine. You're free to do and view the world as you please. But both your original statement, the general disposition, and your pride in your particular choice of mass here is going to suggest that you are going to be *highly* prone to all sorts of biases. Most notably, you're almost certainly going to read information in a confirmation bias sort of way. And in fact, it's absolutely clear that this is happening.

Quote:
My logic is effeminate men give into their disordered passions and short term pleasure in stead of submitting to gods will. Because the Church has ordained these type of priests disordered acts are happening.
The fundamental issue is that language changes over time. The way that Aquinas is using the term has basically NO resemblance to how the word is used today. You are linking it with homosexuality when the context clearly shows that this isn't at all how the term was being used. Rather, the term was used in contrast to perserverance.

But you (and based on what I've seen of Father Ripperger) have conflated the use of the word in the original writing with the contemporary usage of the term, complete with the added expression of sexuality.

Here is what Aquinas originally wrote:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3138.htm

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I answer that, As stated above (II-II:137:1 and II-II:137:2), perseverance is deserving of praise because thereby a man does not forsake a good on account of long endurance of difficulties and toils: and it is directly opposed to this, seemingly, for a man to be ready to forsake a good on account of difficulties which he cannot endure. This is what we understand by effeminacy, because a thing is said to be "soft" if it readily yields to the touch. Now a thing is not declared to be soft through yielding to a heavy blow, for walls yield to the battering-ram. Wherefore a man is not said to be effeminate if he yields to heavy blows. Hence the Philosopher says (Ethic. vii, 7) that "it is no wonder, if a person is overcome by strong and overwhelming pleasures or sorrows; but he is to be pardoned if he struggles against them." Now it is evident that fear of danger is more impelling than the desire of pleasure: wherefore Tully says (De Offic. i) under the heading "True magnanimity consists of two things: It is inconsistent for one who is not cast down by fear, to be defeated by lust, or who has proved himself unbeaten by toil, to yield to pleasure." Moreover, pleasure itself is a stronger motive of attraction than sorrow, for the lack of pleasure is a motive of withdrawal, since lack of pleasure is a pure privation. Wherefore, according to the Philosopher (Ethic. vii, 7), properly speaking an effeminate man is one who withdraws from good on account of sorrow caused by lack of pleasure, yielding as it were to a weak motion.
The word "effeminate" in this context clearly has nothing to do with homosexuality per se. You can lump that in with the various types of pleasure, but to take this and try to focus it specifically on homosexuality is completely devoid of intellectual merit.

Mostly, what I see here is that you've found yourself a little pocket of people who agree with you, and you're just willing to take in whatever they shovel out without actually thinking about it carefully for yourself. It has taken me about an hour to read through Aquinas' statements on effeminacy AND read the thing he was responding to to see that there's very little sense of sexuality intended in these writings.

Maybe you should strive to be a more independent thinker.
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Old 02-14-2019, 12:19 AM   #31
nohands
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Re: 500 More Just In One State

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
Uhhhh... That's the Pope on half of the things you brought up.



The Pope's position on gay leaders in the church wasn't the thing I found odd. It was this "infested with effeminate men" thing.



Do you see the irony of this statement? The Church won't say how they messed up, so the next best thing is someone in the church. You simultaneously want to reject that the Church is an authority to speak into the situation while also holding that your spokesperson is in good standing with the Church. If you really wanted to go down this path, you should have found someone that's been defrocked. This is just empty posturing.



That's fine. You're free to do and view the world as you please. But both your original statement, the general disposition, and your pride in your particular choice of mass here is going to suggest that you are going to be *highly* prone to all sorts of biases. Most notably, you're almost certainly going to read information in a confirmation bias sort of way. And in fact, it's absolutely clear that this is happening.



The fundamental issue is that language changes over time. The way that Aquinas is using the term has basically NO resemblance to how the word is used today. You are linking it with homosexuality when the context clearly shows that this isn't at all how the term was being used. Rather, the term was used in contrast to perserverance.

But you (and based on what I've seen of Father Ripperger) have conflated the use of the word in the original writing with the contemporary usage of the term, complete with the added expression of sexuality.

Here is what Aquinas originally wrote:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3138.htm



The word "effeminate" in this context clearly has nothing to do with homosexuality per se. You can lump that in with the various types of pleasure, but to take this and try to focus it specifically on homosexuality is completely devoid of intellectual merit.

Mostly, what I see here is that you've found yourself a little pocket of people who agree with you, and you're just willing to take in whatever they shovel out without actually thinking about it carefully for yourself. It has taken me about an hour to read through Aquinas' statements on effeminacy AND read the thing he was responding to to see that there's very little sense of sexuality intended in these writings.

Maybe you should strive to be a more independent thinker.
Thanks for your insight.
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Old 02-14-2019, 04:10 AM   #32
batair
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Re: 500 More Just In One State

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I'm singling out homosexual tendencies within the church because that (along with communism) is the root cause of why the Catholic Church as having scandal after scandal.





Pope Acknowledges Nuns Were Sexually Abused by Priests and Bishops
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