This has to be a joke. Of course there is a third choice. I can just hang out by myself.

Also wtf at 4 packs a day! I have a friend who smokes three packs a day and he always has a cigarette in his hand. He smokes in the goddamned shower for Christ's sake.

Not just yourself; half this forum will be with you.

I thought the same thing while I was reading it. The whole point of the thread is that no theology can be applied to make a 3rd choice a logical impossibility for God.

Bare assertions should work however.

These helped me quit smoking, so I'll allow it!

Applied theology is pretty broad - though, of course, any axiom counts as a 'bare assertion'. I mean, if you accept:

1. We are all inherently evil and unworthy of saving
2. God provides a method for saving us despite ourselves via devotion to him
3. Choosing to not devote yourself to God given sufficient evidence is an actual sin and constitutes evil of the highest order
4. We all receive sufficient evidence before having to make that choice
5. Justice requires that freely chosen evil be punished appropriately
6. An appropriate punishment for the worst evil is eternal damnation

God doesn't have a middle ground does he? It all hinges on what choice you make (by assumption with sufficient evidence) and any further mercy (beyond giving us sinners the aforementioned sufficient evidence) would be an unjust and hence evil thing to do (contrary to his nature).

I think those positions are silly, but they're not a hundred miles away from the views of many theologians are they?

Forget everything you wrote, Bunny. Let's all (theists and deists and atheists alike) assume just one thing: Those who are not devoted to God will be separated from God.

Given that assumption, the only thing left for God is how to handle those who are separated from him. In the OP, I'm already making the grandiose assumption that God cannot outpower the devil in the case of hell. God can however have another place for people who are to be separated from him that is not hell. He can even keep the devil out of there with a "goodness safety bubble" akin to a huge domed sports stadium.

What is God missing, the benevolence or the omnipotence? Theists, please chime in.

If you think omnipotence is not limited by logic then you'll easily be able to construct a contradiction from the purported properties of God. Then again, in a universe where logic doesn't apply who cares if you can make a contradictory scenario?

No doubt some theologians think God is unlimited by logic and could make a contradiction occur, but it's not universally taken as such. Most theologians (that I've seen anyhow) take omnipotence to be limited by the rules of logic. For those who mean omnipotent in that restricted fashion - there are plenty of ways to demand eternal torment, largely through assumptions as to other necessary features of God's nature.

"If you think omnipotence is not limited by logic"

I never said or thought this, and definitely didn't mean to imply it. Either way, I still fail to see what logic would be defied by the creation of a 2nd heaven (one for "sinners"). Just postulating a premise doesn't really count for anything. We can all make bare assertions.

Sorry I misunderstood your objection.
All axioms are bare assertions. If the ones I posited above are true then that's why torment is required, even from a benevolent God. You're certainly correct that, without such assumptions, you can't prove the necessity of hell. But without axioms you can't prove anything.

I'm not asking that either though. I'm granting hell, and am wondering why God can't do something else pleasant besides heaven in addition to hell (or nothingness for annihilationists). I don't see why logic would need to be defied in order for God to do that.

EDIT: And if all axioms are bare assertions, you can always claim logic is being defied. Try starting off with the premise that intangible space goblins require peace, and creating a 2nd paradise would upset the goblins. Just don't expect the conversation to continue.

Well, if one accepted the theology above, because doing so would leave a heinous crime unpunished and that would be inconsistent with his just nature.
I think the trouble is that you can do exactly this. Theology has very wide rein - ultimately it's going to rest on the one axiom (the bible is god's word or somesuch) with various interpretations of exactly what that means. I just don't know what you're asking for: you say theology can't give a logical answer, but it can - it just won't give an answer you find appealing because you'll reject the axioms. I doubt you'll find a serious theological answer which fails on the grounds of logical inconsistency (unless you maintain that omni-whatever isn't limited by logic as I mistakenly took your argument initially).

I agree with you, of course, that the usual idea of eternal punishment for failing to believe in God is not consistent with his presumed benevolence. (If there's an afterlife I'm a universalist - what else is consistent with benevolence?) However, I don't agree that it's an intractible logical problem - I just don't agree with the various premises I've heard put forth to reconcile Hell with a loving god.

Perhaps I am constantly using the word "logical" the wrong way, because this is probably the 3rd or 4th time I've run into this in SMP/RGT. I tend to use it as hyperbole, and you (and others) correct me literally. For example, when I say something like "that isn't logical", I mean it as "that doesn't make any sense."

I'll try to be more conscious of this in the future.

Heh. Well it sounds like it's my problem, not yours, so I wouldn't stress.

Let me retract all my posts in this thread and just agree with you then. Sorry about that.

There are a lot of people that actually believe that Hell is a place more like earth, and that it is not that bad. If I remember correctly this was CS Lewis view.

If I am wrong about my interpretation of hell, I believe this to be the most likely.

Hmmm...so is Satan not that evil, or did God just not feel like giving us any better?

Grats on quitting smoking.

Wouldn't surprise me much if Earth is that very place, just with a mindwipe since nobody can remember.

He could.