the problem with this country isn't because we've "lost our faith." america is one of the most fervently religious nations in the world. we're falling apart because we're taking advantage of the decadence that being the world's superpower has afforded us. European nations are getting along just fine without being nearly as religious as we are.

Even if you were right (and you aren't), that not accepting the ridiculous assertions made in OP's link would lead straight to drunken debauchery, it still wouldn't make them true! So serious question...

Do you care about what's actually true? Or would you rather believe something ridiculous just because it makes you feel better? Or let's put in another way...

If you had an illness that gave you 3 months to live, would you want your doctor to tell you? Or would you prefer not knowing because of the unpleasantness such knowledge would give you during your final 3 months?

A terribly low standard to go by, don't you think?

Well, we're no longer burning witches, so I'd say society is improving as a whole. You might disagree.

STD's have always been there. You just didn't hear about it in the past because it was taboo to discuss it at all.

Yes, I'm sure kids beating each other up is a new concept that never existed before.

How much of this is Catholic priests?

As opposed to malnutrition and people starving to death?

Yeah, cause pleasurable things are clearly BAD and SINFUL! ZOMG the HORROR of good alcohol and pornography ROFL.

Let's just agree to disagree. It's your choice. I'm just pointing out the pro position while you're on the anti-God one.

I thought about this for a while and have concluded that there's definitely a limit, even for atheists.

For instance, if my mother is actually a 3-headed demon wearing a human outfit, I'd rather not know. You?

Splendour, i don' think many atheists would be anti-God if there was a tad bit of reason to believe in one. I'd clearly like to live forever, so I'm pro-God right? But just because I want something doesn't mean I'm going to find the first think that promises that and defend it blindly.

Well I wouldn't be interested in eternal life if it were merely eternal in our current condition but God says we get the happiness we seek in this life in the next one.

Have you read the whole bible?

Have you the whole bible, specifically Deuteronomy?

Yes I've read the whole bible. But only Moses in chapters 32 and 33 recently.

Please do not give the old OT is terrible argument. I've already said its spiritual warfare, God's creation of his chosen people and pre-Christ and the Holy Spirit.

You know why "all the current good things come from previous generations in the the Christian world?" Could it be that all the great minds of that age had to be Christians or they were burnt at the stake? Or at the least ostracized and excommunicated from the world.

No previous generation has suffered from such a robust population, more sexing due to less religious fear, violence has always been around.
I'd say pedophilia was worse during the Greek and Roman times. For god's sake, the Greeks were more enlightened then us on homosexuality.

Potential economic failure is not new. And when you have many countries becoming increasingly wealthy, with plenty of food, it's not surprising for many to indulge. Who's to say that a little overweight isn't healthier than malnourished?

We have always followed every pleasure under the sun, we just are more able to reach those pleasures now.

Also most of our democratic ideas and philosophic ideals came from the non-Christian Greeks and Romans. Why did Rome contribute nothing of value after Constantine found baby Jesus?

If he wants to drink a couple of shots and jerk off, who the **** cares? Get a grip.

Splendour, if you're willing to go seek mental help, I'll gladly pay for your first session with a psychiatrist. You can probably get a few of the other posters in RGT to chip in for the rest of your therapy. Your beliefs in "satanic attack" are the ramblings of a crazy person.

I think it would be amazingly awesome to find out my mother was really a demon in human disguise, so I'd definitely want to know that! But now I'm seriously thinking about it and I can't come up with a single thing that I wouldn't want to know the truth about. But there MUST be something!! Here are some things I'd hate to hear, but would still (grudgingly) want to know...

-I'd want to know if my gf were cheating on me.

-I'd want to know if some some really hot girl I was crushing on secretly thought I was a disgusting pig.

-I'd want to know if my friends thought I was a boring jerk.

About the only thing I can think of that I'd be closest to NOT really wanting to know the truth about, is the exact day and hour of my death. But even then, the prudent thing would be to have that knowledge if possible, because I could prepare for it.

I know this is slightly off the track of OP, but I think I'm wrong. There must be something I wouldn't want to know the truth of. I just can't think of anything off the top of my head. Can anyone think of a truth where we are definitely better off not knowing?

Edit: I think I thought of something: I suppose if a meteor were zeroing in on earth that would wipe out human civilization, I think we'd be better off not knowing about it. The reason is that nothing good would likely come out of the ensuing panic until impact. But that doesn't mean I personally, wouldn't want to know. So I'm not sure this counts.

Doesn't that completely contradict the idea of free will?

I'd be in for helping her out but there would need to be a contract set up and reliable third party to ensure she doesn't use the monies to buy more armour* to ward Satan off with.

of course it does. It much easier for the weak-willed to believe it is not their fault when they succumb to the excesses of alcohol or drugs. The Devil did it!

I think there are multiple forces at work in the world. I don't think predestination/foreknowledge and free will are mutually exclusive.

We could even choose to put ourselves under Satan's influence though its probably from ignorance or a lack of knowledge.

Peck in his book Glimpes of the Devil attributed demonic possession to a problem of the will. In his 2 case studies both got into problems when they were young.

In this world we don't really know how many forms demonic possession can take or the severity of those forms. Hypnotism is thought by some to be bad because you actually release control of your will while under it.

In Christianity we try to give our will over to God and that may be why Alcoholics Anonymous works so well. An alcoholic is actually relying on God in addition to himself. Also alcoholics and other types of addiction have a genetic component. We're not in control of our genes so anyone who says someone is weak willed really doesn't know what he's talking about.

Personal will can be developed but you have to learn how to do that but that doesn't mean we can't have inherent built in weaknesses we don't totally control. God is brilliant in his mercy when he tells us to be considerate of other people's weakness and not judgmental. That is a deep wisdom of God. You're suppose to help people in their weakness not punish them with harsh judgment.

Splendour I too will chip into the psychiatric fund, I am getting nauseous reading your posts in this thread, I must echo Lestat's sentiments on how incredibly sad it is that you and so many others truly and whole-heartedly believe this stuff and parade it around. You respond to criticisms and logic with things like 'you are merely anti-god," "well that can't be right because we should fight demons from an early age," etc etc. One of the most frustrating things for me is you (and not just you, but you're here so I guess I'm targeting you right now) seem to have such an underdeveloped or flawed understanding of basic logic and tangible reality that you can't even consider that your beliefs and world view are just delusional.

Are you atheist?

If you are I don't take advice from atheists on spiritual matters.

Only from the bible and spiritually qualified people who's advice lines up with the bible.

so splendour is basically just one big level?

Besides this was a theist thread. Why don't you go rail in your own thread.

what's the point in even having a religion forum if theists and atheists aren't allowed to discuss matters with each other?

This thread reminded me of this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDUkd5os4xk

There was very little thought behind the formation of this forum. It was part of SMP and they thought it was clogging up their science threads and moved it.

As Pletho said deciding to follow Jesus or not isn't all that hard.

You don't need to argue God all the time. Arguing builds the exact attitudes that God says not to build.

Reason is secondary to attitude. It's our pride in ourselves that dictates we elevate reason. The God of the Bible doesn't say that.

The bible says Proverbs 9:10: The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

(Now depending on your personal character fear could mean fear or fear could mean reverence. Apparently reverence isn't enough for some people and so they have to fear him to come to their senses.)


Read 1 Corinthians 2:8 to 2:10
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...0;&version=76;