A theist website claims a list of 10 fulfilled prophecies on the the state of Israel. The author claims Israel's independence and its millitary victories as evidence for their fulfilment. These prophecies are now subject to your interpretation.


1. Israel will prevail over its enemies
Claim: Fulfilled: late 1900s

My Response: The claim here is that since Israel’s independence in 1948 Israel has prevailed over its enemies. The problem here is that Israel is surrounded by Arab nations and since 1948. Israel has been involved in several conflicts. Even though Israel has so far prevailed over its enemies (Owing much to support from the United States) it is still surrounded by Arab nations the situation is far from over.

2. The ruins of Israel would be rebuilt
Claim: Fulfilled late 1900s

My response: Israel has been conquered by many different armies and nations, culminating with the Ottoman empire. The problem I find here is that to me Israel has never been destroyed, and the evidence the author provides for the rebuilding of Israel comes in the form of advanced farming techniques which have been almost universal in application throughout the developed world. Nothing special in Israel’s case.

3. Ezekiel prophesied prosperity for modern-day Israel
Claim: fulfilled late 1900s

My response: The claim here is that Israel is enjoying prosperity since it has the highest GDP/capita of any nearby country. However Israel has a lower GDP/capita than the UAE and Israel’s statistics pale in comparison to largely secular countries such as Sweden.

4. Trees again would grow in Israel
Claim: fulfilled late 1900s

My response: Did they ever stop growing?

5. Isaiah said Israel's fruit would fill the world
Claim: fulfilled late 1900s

My response: It’s hard to narrow down the biblical definition of the word ‘fruit’ however since the author thinks that Israel’s fruit filling the world has to do with Christianity’s spread throughout the world. I’ll use that. Even though Christianity is the worlds largest religion secularization is ever increasing throughout the world. So Israel’s fruit has not entirely filled the world.

6. Jerusalem would become the world's most important religious site
Claim: Fulfilled Today

My response: For Jews, Muslims and Christians this point is hard to refute however I will point out that for Hindus, Buddhists and Sikhs their important religious sites may be located on the other side of the earth.

7. Egypt would never again rule over other nations
Claim: Fulfilled: 1967, etc.

My response: This is a hard one to refute since during these days of globalization it is very unlikely Egypt will have any incentive to attempt to conquer another nation (It would be too costly in terms of interdependence and loss of trade)

8. Zechariah prophesied the Jews return to Jerusalem
Claim: Fulfilled: 1967, etc.

My response: Many Jews returned to Israel when the Catholics in the 12th century began killing them. Today Jews are found throughout the world. Jews have been coming and going from Jerusalem for hundreds of years. Not all the Jews have returned.

9. Israel's deserts will become like the Garden of Eden
Claim: Being fulfilled now

My response: The garden of Eden is meant to be an untouched paradise where Adam and Eve once roamed, it had talking snakes and a tree that contained knowledge of good and evil. I’ve never been to Israel but doubt it bares much resemblance to it.

10. Isaiah foretold of the worldwide return of Jews to Israel
Claim: Fulfilled: late 1900s

My response: See 8

I’d be very interested to see if any of the theists on this board believe that any of these prophecies can be validated, maybe through a different interpretation of a quote, or by providing a different date for when the prophecy was fulfilled. Similarly I’d like to hear sceptics responses to these prophecies and their thoughts on their accuracy.

Its interesting you posted on Israel. I've been thinking the only prophecy that is repeated three times almost verbatim by Jesus is the parable of the fig tree. Read Mark 13:28

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...013&version=9;

It's also reported in Luke and Matthew.

You can surf this site for more historical comparisons and info:

http://www.100prophecies.org/

You can also look at Deuteronomy 33:13 to 33:17. It is Moses blessing on the House of Joseph (this house included Manassah and Ephraim). Note the princely crown. This house was dispersed throughout the world when the Kingdom of Israel fell during the period of the 2 Kingdoms: Kingdom of Judah and Kingdom of Israel.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...3;&version=46;


You may want to look up links on the Lost Tribes of Israel. There's a lot of info about them returning to Israel from many areas of the world.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_tribes_of_Israel

Cats are cute

Just found this from one of Splendour's links:

Mark 13:10 "And the gospel must first be published among all nations." Of course this is most definitely a spoken order and not a prophecy, I am sure the theist hoardes will claim it as one.

I didn't know the other name for the bible is “The Gospel”. So it must be all true.
[/Ricky Gervais]

The Gospel is the saving message of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. When using the term in reference to bible books it means the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

FYP

Maybe you could check the Dead Sea Scrolls.

that is just false.

The Dead Sea scrolls do not contain any of the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John, maybe you should check them out.

But they confirm the Jewish origin of the Gospels:

http://craigaevans.com/Scrolls_Gospels.pdf

Name any other nation that was dismantled and scattered all over the world nearly 2,000 years ago that managed to keep its religious and ethnic identity intact and reassemble as a nation.

One is Israel.

Now try to name a second and back it up with solid facts.

Because Hebrew was a dead language and it came back just like the bible said it would.

Blaise Pascal got it and he advised kings.

Which part?

most of it. plus i did not like the tone.

Duh. Of what other origin would they be -- American Indian?

In my post I claimed that the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were written 40 to 100 years after Jesus’ death. You claimed this was wrong. Jesus died roughly the age of 33. So we can date his death to approximately to AD33. Traditionally we have dated the four books to these dates:

Matthew: 60-105AD
Mark: 60-105AD
Luke: 60-105AD
John: 90-105AD

Since we know Jesus died in AD 33, and I said that they were written 40 to 100 years after Jesus’ death. We can add 40 to his death date to see if my point stands:

40AD+33AD = 73AD, which falls into the bracket for the traditional dating for the books of Matthew, Mark and Luke. Traditionally John wrote his book in 90-105AD. Meaning he wrote his book between 57 and 72 years after Jesus’ death, which falls under the brackets I gave for the writing of the four gospels. My point stands. And the onus is now on you to point out why I am wrong.

I also stated that the books were no doubt edited many times since. The process of deciding what, and what not to include in the New Testament was a long and lengthy process, which took place over many centuries. One scholar (Patzia) stated that:

“It appears that the books that finally were canonized are those that enjoyed a special status and were utilized both frequently and universally by the church.”

The Council of of Trent voted that the deuterocanonical books were to be included in the bible. The New Testament as it is now was accepted by the third council of Carthage in 397AD accepted the New Testament as it is now.

The Gospels have been translated many times over to get to the current modern English version they are now. Latin, Greek, Syriac, Coptic to name a few. No doubt words and meanings get lost in the translations. Over the years, there have been many possible additions to the original text.

As you can see, books have been added and removed, many parts of the New Testament have been added to and through translation meaning can get lost. Again my point stands and the onus is yet again upon you to refute my point. I do not think it is possible, you were wrong.

Then why did you include this in the discussion. I do not think any logical person doubts the origin of the Gospels.

I do not understand why you bought this up possibly to derail my thread, which you have done.

However I have no problem playing your game. Firstly the original language of large sections of the bible was Aramaic, this language is now considered to be endangered. Similar to how English has changed from Olde English to modern, Hebrew has developed from Biblical Hebrew to modern day Hebrew. I do not think Hebrew ever was a dead language. Maybe you could find a reference for this?

During the Soviet occupation of much of Eastern Europe, the Soviet union tried much to destroy their respective cultures to make it more uniform with the rest of its empire. I have heard many anecdotal stories from a Lithuanian and Polish people of how this was done. After the Soviet Union fell Lithuania and Poland managed to regain much of their culture. This is recent history and you are looking for a classical example.

Egypt has had a torrid history, since the fall of its empire. Macedonians, Romans, Persians, Muslim Arabs, Ottoman Empire, The French and the British Empire have all been in control of it for some period of time. In 1922 the British allowed Egypt its independence and the Egypt of the past was restored.

Echoes of Egypt’s past can be found In music, Egyptian festivals of Paremoude, Pashons are still there and have been celebrated for thousands of years. You can still see Egyptian pride in its Nationalist movements. I’d imagine you will be able to find similar examples in all of the fallen kingdoms, Greek, Basque, post colonial African nations and old Soviet Union countries. All will have a claim.

Its not a derailment in a biblical prophecy thread to bring up the reunification of Israel. Much of the bible was all about the dispersement and future reunification of the Jews. The examples you give above don't come very close to the story of Israel's reunification. The Jews were dispersed all over the world a VERY VERY long time ago. Blaise Pascal even pointed out they are the continuing miracle of the bible to King Louis XIV. In fact, the Jews were actually outside of Israel more than once. If you don't count their captivity in Egypt, you have to count the Babylonian Captivity (where when they came out of it they spoke Aramaic). Then after 2 wars with Rome they scattered and are intentionally reuniting to this day. They even have a religious/ethnic term for it. They call it making aliyah (any Hebrew scholars can correct me but I think this means "ascent'").

Israel is often called by prophecy experts "God's time piece". There are prophecy experts and "watchers" that anticipate the coming of Christ and the thing continuously focused on is the state of affairs in Israel. There are certain end times prophecies that devolve from events that are and have already taken place there.

As for the Hebrew language I've heard it described as a dead language but some experts call it a "revived" language.

National Center for the Hebrew Language:
http://www.ivrit.org/htm/why_hebrew/story_04.shtml

Another easier read:

http://www.bibleinthenews.com/home/v....php?id_pag=62

Where is the prophecy of Israel becoming the worlds biggest terrorist state?

Sounds like your biased.

Israel is almost ringed by enemy states and has to fight on a daily basis to ensure its own security and survival.

A couple of times in recent history Israel was surrounded by enemies but they managed to prevail and fight them off.

If you read Robert Baer's book The Devil We Know: Dealing With the New Iranian Superpower you'll see Israel is very close to being fully ringed by enemies again.

Of course, your attitude is also indicative of the end times where the world turns on Israel.

The bible says God intervenes when the attack on them causes fury to hit him like a fist in God's face.

Sounds like you are the one who is biased. My best friend was born in Tel Aviv but that doesnt stop me from looking past the lies of the Zionist media. Besides the USA and the UK the rest of the world views Israel as a terrorist state.

I am.

But maybe you should be asking why none of the Palestinians got cared for properly by their Islamic brothers while the Jews are able to absorb their religious bros from all over the world. Iran kicked out its Jews and Israel took them in. Lots of Jews fled Russia. Again Israel absorbed them and so on and so on....

There never was a Palestinian state prior to Israel in 1948. It was all the remains of the Ottoman Empire.

Think maybe they want to keep the blood feud going?

At some point a blood feud takes on a life of its own and this one's been going on for millenia.

"Country" is a relatively new and loose term.

Palestine is the name given to the land of Israel by Ancient Rome after they defeated Israel in 2 wars. Israel though it was tiny in comparison to Rome managed to damage and cost the Roman Army so much that from the end of the 2nd war the Roman Empire actually went into decline.

The Romans re-named the territory Palestine which means Philistine (Israel's historical foe) to denigrate Israel in defeat.

Your map doesn't really show any history. Its just a visual image shifting around names. The Arabs were pleased to sell land to the Jews because they thought it was worthless. They only took umbrage once the British decided to control things by the Balfour Declaration.

Arabs have full citizenship rights in Israel but Jews outside of Israel in other parts of the Middle East have no rights and face discrimination problems.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

Before that it was a collection of Egyptian city states called the land of Canaan I believe. Regardless of who was there first it has been conquered and reconquered throughout history and hopefully its reconquered again sometime. As I said "Country" is a relatively new and loose term and you just admitted Palestine existed. If you think its ok for a race of people to wait a few thousand years and reconquer some land in this day and age and then oppress a people then thats your belief but regardless Israel use numerous terrorist tactics and the majority of the world views them as a terrorist state.

This is not a political thread. Its a prophecy thread.