simple dispute, would like opinions - Seeking Stakes -- Two Plus Two Poker Forums

Strap is a friend but my rep is very important to me so I will be as helpful/honest as I can.

Loaning strap is probably a good investment if you don't mind waiting, and you get enough interest.

Strap is a good guy but the last two or three times strap has borrowed money intending to grind low stakes MTT SNGs, the money has found its way onto a midstakes HU PLO table (or whatever else) and has been busted.

He currently owes me 3K and a roomate of mine a similar amount of money (for the low stakes MTT SNG)

1 - Strap is a good guy and certainly not out to scam anyone

2 - He has a degenning problem

3 - I believe he +EV in most forms of tourney NL poker

Any other questions let me know.

Hope this helps,

Andrew

Apparently they went into some sort of agreement afterwards and it didn't go as the loaning player had wanted.

Now the player is sending me walls of text about how I am responsible for this players debt since I "vouched" for them.
This is taken out of context since the PM's are so long.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aleph Omega

I want you to make good on his debt, take it over and pay me!

For what it's worth, I have been in this players position many times, backing players who ended up being bad investments based on vouches that I thought (and still think) were accurate at the time.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/13...-stake-731354/
Here is just one example of a guy I staked who is in 12K of makeup because he cashed out money I had transferred him before any winnings were obtained without telling me (pretty much scamming/ stealing from me) Should I drag daliman, CyberianBull, and Pasterbator through the mud? No, I think they gave their honest opinions at the time, and that's all we expected of them.

What say you?

Last edited by Andrew Boccia; 02-10-2013 at 04:10 AM.

Quote

02-10-2013 , 03:52 AM

WVUskinsfan

no felonies

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,055

You gave a reference and nothing else. You are not responsible for anyone's debt.

Quote

02-10-2013 , 04:03 AM

Daliman

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 14,911

F'n JohnnyBeef.

Quote

02-10-2013 , 04:09 AM

Andrew Boccia

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,539

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daliman

F'n JohnnyBeef.

hehe

Quote

02-10-2013 , 04:26 AM

URWRSTNTMARE

journeyman

Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 275

Definitely not liable for anything. You even tried to warn the guy from the looks of it. Kudos to you as well for not trying to sugar coat it for someone who you seem to consider a friend to get a stake. Degens gonna degen.

Quote

02-10-2013 , 06:01 AM

Aznpowr11

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,653

with what's been presented in OP, it's not your debt

Quote

02-10-2013 , 06:19 AM

KevinV

journeyman

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 277

you are not responsible

Quote

02-10-2013 , 06:52 PM

ThomasBihl

enthusiast

Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 99

Obviously not responsible. FWIW I read your "vouch" more as a "warning".

Add: He has a degenning problem should put most people off.

Last edited by ThomasBihl; 02-10-2013 at 06:54 PM. Reason: Add to make my position more clear

Quote

02-10-2013 , 07:02 PM

Zima421

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 18,973

you arent responsible for any of it. what you wrote in the PM isnt a vouch at all.

aleph just trying to get money back any way he can at this point.

Quote

02-11-2013 , 12:09 AM

#10

jaxtraw

old hand

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,357

I have no idea why the guy went ahead anyway,and backed him after receiving your message.

Quote

02-11-2013 , 03:00 AM

#11

Manhat10ite

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 683

LOL, you call that a letter of recommendation, you basically called him a degen and a thief without coming straight out and saying it. Aleph is an idiot for making the loan. You don't owe a dime.

Quote

02-11-2013 , 09:24 AM

#12

Toreador

old hand

Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 1,217

obv you dont owe anything .

Quote

02-11-2013 , 11:42 AM

#13

WVUskinsfan

no felonies

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,055

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manhat10ite

LOL, you call that a letter of recommendation, you basically called him a degen and a thief without coming straight out and saying it. Aleph is an idiot for making the loan. You don't owe a dime.

yea the reference was more of a warning than anything else.

Quote

02-12-2013 , 05:41 PM

#14

Andrew Boccia

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,539

I'm going to go ahead and post the chain of PM's. Perhaps if another user does an internet search for this player, he will find this thread and have the privilege of avoiding him. Please understand, this harassment is all based on a simple and quick pm that I wrote (shown in OP.) Nothing more.

Spoiler:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aleph Omega

Hello Andrew,

Do you remember in may 2010 Dan Jiacopello wanted to loan money from me and I asked for you to vouch for Dan Jiacopello before deciding to loan him?

Kind regards,
Aleph Omega

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Boccia

Hey, I don't remember this specifically but I believe you.

I wouldn't loan him any money nowadays since he has gone under and owes a lot of people including myself about 10K.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aleph Omega

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Boccia

Hey, I don't remember this specifically but I believe you.

I wouldn't loan him any money nowadays since he has gone under and owes a lot of people including myself about 10K.

This was actually not the kind of reaction I was expecting from someone in your situation. Clearly nowadays I wouldn't even consider loaning him.
I have provided your vouch for Dan Jiacopello below so you can reread yourself. I asked for your vouch to be sent to me on PM so when sh*t hits the fan I would have it stored and could use it as proof.

At first when he asked me to loan him I was skeptical since it would make more sense for him to ask one of his friends such as Kevin Saul or bax or you for a loan.
But since I grinded a lot of 180s and the loan was to grind 180s it made a lot of sense. If I needed to pay a couple thousand grinding 180s (on a stake) would be my first option.

Since he has a lot of high roller friends, was playing MTTs up to $2100 stakes by sheets/bax and I've saw him win a WSOP ME seat directly prior to this and you were playing high stakes cash and multiple time Supernova Elite I figured both of you would rather make good on the $4000 debt than to ruin your reputation so I decided to loan him.
Furthermore he promised he had money in the bank that he could send me even if he lost everything. Also he promised that paying me back had priority over all his other debts.

To compensate for possible future degening I negociated 5% weekly compounded interest after may 23rd 2010.
Here are the cliffs of what he did:
- First he grinded 180s, won a couple thousand, complained about running bad the entire time;
- He basically tilted the largest portion of the bankroll away at 1000 HU PLO with bluffing with often total air (clearly I was not happy about this but I was not his backer and he was already getting punished by the high weekly compounded interest);
- Eventually he stopped grinding, had no money left and the money he promised he had in the bank was 'gone';
- He claimed that I made an agreement with him to lower his debt to $4000 with no further interest, I said I never did and it wouldn't make sense for me at all to lower the pressure on him before he actually starts paying me back (for instance when he was just honest grinding and needed a little more time to pay back the last $1000 I would charge some interest, but when he tilts it all away and pays nothing back and the money in his bank account was a fairy tale I would've suddenly free him from paying any interest at all, that is beyond insane). Furthermore I reviewed the entire AIM chat log I had on him and told him if he had any chat log to support his claim and offered him to give my entire chat log but he declined. At this point no reasonable person could conclude that his claim was true;
- He claimed to be broke all the time and that he would pay me in the future without giving clear dates or amounts;
- He said he was staked/loaned to play poker on several occasions, including 2/5 at the Borgota and on Stars in Mexico by theskillzdatklls who said "hes the kind of guy that says he will pay and just never will";
- He said he had several jobs, including one working on a ship and currently selling solar panels;
- He said he wouldn't pay me "one dime" because others put up a weblog where he is outed as a scammer which allegedly has cost him a job. Or at least not pay before they take it down. I said it was totally unacceptable for me that he thinks he can make conditions like that based upon things that I didn't do and have no control about.
- I demanded that he wrote a signed letter where he (1) took back that he would not pay me conditional on those scammer weblogs about him being taken down (2) he would never make conditions like that again (3) admitted his debt (4) state that he would pay me back as soon as he reasonably could (5) confirm that the initial debt was $4000 due on may 23rd 2010 with 5% weekly compounded interest (6) add a copy of his passport.
- He refused to do any of (1)-(6). Said he was currently broke (which has nothing to do with all/most of my demands). Told me to "fall back" and "good luck with all that" and said I was "hurting the progress". And that I was "being a dick" and that I (note that I live in Europe and he knows that) "can meet him in person for my money and personal info".
- Following the weekly compounded interest his current debt is in excess of $3.8 million.

He also said nothing about his debt to others and how big it was and how those debts relate to me getting paid back. Only implying vague minimal promises of paying back.
I interpret this as that he has no intention of paying me back ever, supported by a large history of other people he scammed.
He lied about the money he had in his bank. He lied when he said I would have the highest priority of getting paid back (only received $50 once in 2011).
He lied when he said he would not play in other games that he was not supposed to play. And he lied all the time about paying back.
And you lied when you vouched that he was a good guy that was certainly not out to scam anyone!

If you would've said something among the lines "I've done several small bets/swaps/backings with him and he always paid back in time. At one occasion I payed him back 10 fold by mistake and he shipped it back directly after. My dealings with him were always pleasant but I never met him in person or can tell you much about his current situation or intentions. Nor am I aware of any shady actions from him." I would have not loaned him (which is what I would say if you asked me to vouch for brad2002tj).
Nor would I've accepted the same vouch if it wasn't coming from a winning high stakes player that has been SNE for several years and I was you were listed as a PokerZion coach aswell, simply because for a low stakes player his reputation isn't worth enough to care deeply about his reputation. Internet poker isn't the same as for instance Rounders where the voucher gets beat up until he pays or an early 1800s Mississippi boat where you get shot if you don't pay.
And you were fully aware of this since you said "my rep is very important to me".

So the only reason I ended up loaning was the not only should any guy with jiacstrap level poker skills be able to grind 180s be able to grind at least $50k a year and make much more than he needs to live. He was also a "good guy" and "certainly not out to scam anyone" so he would actually do that if he had to. And even if he didn't both of your reputations were worth much more than the initial $4000 so I could always collect.

I hope you take all this into consideration in your answer.

Not only am I getting scammed by Dan Jiacopello, I'm getting Chino'd aswell!

Kind regards,
Aleph Omega

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Boccia

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Boccia

why are you writing this to me?

do you want an apology?

Sorry for giving you the most accurate vouch I could at the time.

Andrew

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aleph Omega

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Boccia

why are you writing this to me?

You seemed like a nice person in your vouch so I wanted to give you the opportunity to plea that I wasn't scammed and robbed by the person you vouched for or offer me a satisfying solution for this problem. Instead of cold confronting you with this PM from 2010 with my conclusion ready that you are in the wrong.

But I understand that is hard to plea after you said "since he has gone under and owes a lot of people including myself about 10K". According to you, he even scammed you, his friend!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Boccia

do you want an apology?

No. I want you to make good on his debt, take it over and pay me!

You act like you are unaware what it means to vouch for someone:

Quote:

vouch (vouch)
v. vouched, vouch·ing, vouch·es
v.intr.
1. To give personal assurances; give a guarantee: vouch for an old friend's trustworthiness.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/vouch

Quote:

1vouch verb \ˈvau̇ch\
intransitive verb
1
: to give a guarantee : become surety

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vouch

Quote:

vouch
If you vouch for someone, you provide evidence or guarantee something on their behalf. If you vouch for your brother, you're saying he's a stand-up type of guy.
First used in the 14th century, vouch comes from the Latin vocitare, ("to call, call upon, or summon"). Sometimes it can mean offering supporting evidence, as when, for example, you're summoned to court to testify on someone's behalf. If you write a letter of recommendation for a student or co-worker, you vouch for their character and abilities. If you take out a student loan, the government will automatically vouch for you, that is, they'll guarantee the loan will be repaid

http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/vouch

I have yet to see a dictionary that says vouch means unaccountable gossip!

And when I searched for Dan Jiacopello's idol, Chino Rheem, I found this post by Will Molson/molswi47 that I shortened down a lot to show the most relevant point:

Quote:

Originally Posted by shipdatboi

The incident occurred last year at ept london.
I agree to this and ship 20k to him and 20k to grinder so that they can buy in in the morning.
Xfer doesn't go through because it was the first time I would be xfering to their accounts and stars support was busy. I bust and later that day I see stars shipped 40k to both of them instead of 20k each.

They made a new 20k xfer and after that was processed the other xfer was then able to then go through they tell me.

I text both of them to see if they got double the planned amount and both of them confirm this with me. So I think all is good lol - but nah. Grinder ships me back the 40k and says I never agreed to vouch or send for Chino.

Chino still "owes" me 40k almost a year later. I put that into parentheses because he flat out stole from me and it's at the point where I don't expect to see my money back. He flat out stole from me and had no intention of swapping ftp money with me.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...scams-1080717/

This is the exact point. If Michael Mizrachi vouched for Chino Rheem in this 40k scam/theft then it is very clear that Will Molson could collect from Michael Mizrachi if Chino Rheem didn't pay.
In this situation I think it's debatable, but if Will Molson had direct contact with Michael Mizrachi about the swap and Mizrachi didn't warn him that he wouldn't pay if Chino Rheem didn't pay him first on FTP then he had to always pay since he made an agreement with both. Just the fact that Michael Mizrachi has a good reputation and that he makes deals with/through Chino Rheem should be enough for people to trust that they are getting paid and not getting scammed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Boccia

Sorry for giving you the most accurate vouch I could at the time.

Andrew

Our situation is crystal clear. You called Dan Jiacopello a friend, good investment, a good guy, a good guy again, certainly not a scammer and a winning tourney player. He said he had money in his bank account that he could send me if he went broke on the loan and that he would always pay me as fast as possible. If he was a not a scammer and good guy twice(!!) he would've had that money and not lie about it, he would've kept the money untouched untill he paid me back and he would've paid me as much and as fast as he reasonably could. But he didn't! He scammed me and he stole from me!

If I knew he was that kind of person clearly I would've never loaned him "one dime". You knew that I was asking you to confirm that he himself took the duty to pay back very serious and to put two persons reputations on the line for one debt, not just one. And you knew you were doing this, you mentioned the importance of your reputation yourself.

Now you tell me, if you *could* vouch for someone, they blatantly scam someone out of thousands of dollars and then afterwards you could be *sorry for being accurate*, what would the point of letting you vouch be?

Now you tell me, if your reputation is so important and you mention your reputation yourself, and you vouched for an outright scammer, and there would be no consequences for you then what is the function of your reputation if you just could keep doing this without consequences?

Now you tell me, how can I be *sure* that you and Dan Jiacopello didn't form a devil's duo against me where he just chipdumped my money at HU PLO (and I saw the hands, they totally looked like chipdumping) and you two share my money. Maybe because he owed you money? Dan Jiacopello plays the broke Chino card and you try to keep your *good reputation*.
Hint: I can't! I cannot be sure about this, the only thing that I could do is believe this without me ever being able to prove or disprove this.

Believing something that cannot be proven or disproven by evidence is called faith. And I'm not a religious person! I'm a rational person and I will never accept that you could say: "oh no I didn't, have faith that he scammed me also and that I was very accurate" when having and following this faith will cost me thousands of dollars!

Take responsibility,
Aleph Omega

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Boccia

I'm sorry you are confused. Vouching in this context does not mean I am responsible for his debt. You can post our back and forth anywhere in the poker community. It simply means I vouched for his credibility in terms that he had a gambling problem but wasn't out to outright scam anyone, in my honest opinion, at this time that you had asked for my opinion. Whats funny is, I am pretty sure I was right, and this is what actually happened, exactly how I had warned you, actually.

I understand you are angry but picking a fight with me when you are in the wrong will go nowhere. I am owed a lot of money from poker players who have gone under, and who had reputable players vouch for them. I don't hunt down the people who vouched for them because I trust they gave me their honest opinion at the time, and that's all I expected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Boccia

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/13.../#post37099063

I made a thread about the situation, you can share your point of view, but public opinion will not be on your side, You are wrong here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aleph Omega

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Boccia

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/13.../#post37099063

I made a thread about the situation, you can share your point of view, but public opinion will not be on your side, You are wrong here.

I don't feel like making a post #8 in a thread where you presented your side of the story first, you didn't even bother to ask me before making the thread. It would be better if you deleted the thread.

I was and still am asking several poker players what they think of vouching in general/specific. I can promise that if I find no support for my point of view I will gladly drop this issue with you and apologize.

"Apparently they went into some sort of agreement afterwards and it didn't go as the loaning player had wanted."
This is indeed "out of context".

There are many important facts you left out, I don't have much time right now so I'll only give a few:
1. He lied that he had money in bank that he could and always would pay me if he lost the loan;
2. He lied when he said I would've dropped all interest and was completely unreasonable (read: scammy) about this;
3. He scammed you and other for tens of thousands of dollars;
4. He refused to pay "one dime" because he was outed as a scammer, he feels he can make all the conditions he wants based on things outside of my control to not pay me;
5. He refused to aknowlegde his debt or even his intention to pay me as fast as he reasonably can.

You can focus on his degening all you want, but did I come to you when he went full degen? NO!
I went to you because all the points in that list are thing he shouldn't have done. And I shouldn't have expected him to ever do it because then he would ruin his and your reputation!

If your vouch was something like this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamiezig

yep. traded 5k with him, stars for tilt. he's reputable, plays lots of midstakes PLO.

Then it would be clear that you just wanted to say something nice but you barely know the guy and did one trade and was not scammed that instance.

But you said he was CERTAINLY not out to scam anyone. You cannot compare those things. If that was certain, how do you explain all these events?

Following your logic your vouch would've been meaningless. But your vouch had a very strong effect on me because with the degen warning it sounded very sincere. I don't mind degeneracy as long as he is a good guy and willing to pay in the end.

You put your reputation on the line, if your reputation is not important to you then I think you should have no reputation at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Boccia

stop trying to break the reference down like some kind of Manhattan lawyer and read how normal, 3rd parties viewed it.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/13...nions-1298846/

you are still welcome to share your side of the story, if I missed something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aleph Omega

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Boccia

stop trying to break the reference down like some kind of Manhattan lawyer and read how normal, 3rd parties viewed it.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/13...nions-1298846/

The Manhattan lawyer is a great compliment, thank you. But the Manhattan lawyers likes you to respond to the points he is making. Remember that his time is very valuable and that people don't use Manhattan lawyers unless they have a serious case.
Ok first of all let me make it straight that I never agreed to let the outcome of our dispute depend on the reactions in that thread and that I won't. I value them about the same as a discussion between you and your friends where you discuss your side of the story. And I think making a thread when I'm the process of gathering opinions and reflecting my own is hurting the progess.

However I'm still willing to read your thread and react to the responses. I'm ignoring the responses from unknown posters that seem to be microstakes players after a very quick research.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zima421

you arent responsible for any of it. what you wrote in the PM isnt a vouch at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Boccia

Now the player is sending me walls of text about how I am responsible for this players debt since I "vouched" for them.

So according to Zima421 and your ""-use your PM wasn't a vouch at all. I don't agree with this at all.
I asked Jiacopello to let someone reputable vouch for him, out of all people he mentioned I picked you because out of all people he mentioned I valued your reputation the highest and you were longtime SNE.

And your PM was a vouch! I asked for a vouch, and I didn't got a refusal, I got a vouch!

You never replied to this PM!
If you meant to write me a "warning" or anything else but a vouch you failed to warn me that your PM wasn't a vouch. I took it as a vouch, you knew I wanted a vouch, you knew I took it as a vouch. There is no way in hell this wasn't a vouch!

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaxtraw

I have no idea why the guy went ahead anyway,and backed him after receiving your message.

I didn't back, I made a short loan with bank account of Jiacopello as earnest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manhat10ite

LOL, you call that a letter of recommendation, you basically called him a degen and a thief without coming straight out and saying it. Aleph is an idiot for making the loan. You don't owe a dime.

This Manhat10ite guy is a SNG reg and he hates me with a passion, I know where this insult/opinion is coming from. But basically what he ans jaxtraw are saying is this:
1. In your PM you were communicating that Jiacopello is a degen and (thus?) a thief.
2. If I loan him, even when he promises he has an earnest and even when I'm patient enough to potentially wait a long time where he has to grind it back on small stakes SNGs and pay off other debts also it will still be a very bad investment to loan Jiacopello because he is gonna scam me much more frequent than he he gonna pay me back with interest.

I think they are complete wrong here on both points.
1. I strongly disagree that all degens are thiefs. Both in the real world and online poker world you can't conclude that if someone has one flaw he is totally flawed. I strongly believe that there are numerous maffia bosses all over the world that have ordered the killing of many men and at the same time are more reliable and have a better trackrecord in paying back loans than major Wallstreet banks.

For instance isildur1, I totally wouldn't be surprized if someone loaned him 50k to play 5000 PLO HU and he said he was only gonna play 5000 PLO HU, and then he ran it up and busted it at 40000 PLO. But I also think he is a very nice guy and he would always make good on his debts, either by having enough money offline or to grind it back at lower stakes.

And I like to think of myself as a degen. For instance did I decided to "bumhunt" this Cole South guy where everyone was talking about on 2000 PLO HU when I had less than 10k bankroll when we started to play, which lasted till other bumhunters ignored our chat requests for "hu". Screenshot provided below. If I had busted my bankroll I'd ask a friend for a stake and grind it back.

And at the same time my degen self has made bets/loans with friends for thousands of dollars that I lost, couldn't pay them right away, told them I could always pay them later because I had money coming in. And I've always paid back, never let anyone wait for 3 years and then refused to even aknowledge that I had this debt and intend to pay it back as soon as I reasonably could.
I think that with personal friends you can be more liberal than with persons you've never even met in person, with unknowns I always was more strict and formal since I don't expect them to trust me as good as my friends so I wouldn't bother them with waiting till I collected money from others, unlike Erick Lindgren who acts like everyone on this planet is his "close friend".
And I always made sure I never made debts greater than I could pay back from the money I had incoming and/or behind.

THAT IS WHAT MAKES ME A GOOD GUY CERTAINLY NOT OUT TO SCAM ANYONE!

2. You knew Jiacopello in person, you even lived with him. I remember at the time he was asking for this loan he mentioned you screamed "f*ck" over some PLO hand where you got valuetowned by Scary_Tiger. If you know someone in person and have loaned him money and know of others that loan him you get to see if he's a dodgy scumbag or an honest person. Your situation made you infintely better equipped to give a judgement about Jiacopello's trustworthyness than me on the other side of the Atlantic.

This also made you infinitely better equipped to say if loaning him would be a good or bad investment! How anyone can conclude that you meant to say he was a bad investment when you literally said he was a good investment baffles me to no end. I guess they like to have a false sense of security allowing themselves to think they would never get scammed because they think they never deal degens when they hear a story about this one degen that turned out to be a Chino.

If you want to agree with Manhat10ite and jaxtraw you shouldn't have ever said he was a good investment. If you would've given me a "yeah i know this guy"-type vouch I wouldn't have loaned Jiacopello anything. I've read your vouch many times and tought about it for a long time and I took it very serious and literally since it sounded so honest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aleph Omega

I also like to show you the second most impressive vouch I've ever received (yours was more impressive because it was longer, had more references to his personality and because you also mentioned his degen side it seemed very honest):
This is what I asked:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aleph Omega

Hey,

Can you vouch for dudeoflifes intergity and him being +EV at 1.2-1 in the WCOOP ME?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/13...-event-588673/

Thanks in advance,
Aleph Omega

This is what I got:

Quote:

Originally Posted by cashman

I will vouch for dudeoflife's integrity. If there are any problems I will cover any $ you are out. I have picked up action on him on numerous occasions and have been nothing but impressed with his decision making throughout. I believe he is one of the players who flies under the radar and one of these days will have multiple full time backers lined up trying to pick him up as a horse for their stable. Rob is a +EV investment imo.

CashmanBrian

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...-event-588673/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Boccia

you are still welcome to share your side of the story, if I missed something.

This is my side of the story. I like to think that I can handle more than all those posters who said it was not a vouch and that they would've never lended a degen or expect to get scammed/stolen from. I also supect they are biased because they read he was a degen and scammed. it reminded me of people claiming the secret service failed before 911 because they didn't act on people taking flight lessons that were more interested in flying straight than on landing/taking off. It is hard to be objective about that after you've seen airplanes fly in the WTC towers.

The only thing that matters here is what I would do based on the knowlegde I had after your vouch. With the only expection being that it was unreasonable for me to expect that. This is what I was thinking after your vouch:
1. If I was in the same situation as Jiacopello I would need a stake and it would be mutually beneficial for me ans the staker;
2. He has degen tendencies and he might make degen mistakes again under my stake;
3. By Andrew Boccia's vouch, Jiacopello is a good person and not a scammer, just like me, my good friends, and isildur1 as how I imagine him;
4. I can live with waiting a long time till he grinds this debt back, I can live with him getting an accident and not being able to ever make money again, I can live with having to wait a long time till he makes good on his debts with a normal job;
5. Both their reputations should be worth much more than the loan I'm about to give, however if I get scammed and neither of them pays me back or finds a satisfying solution to this problem I'm willing to ruin their reputations even if this potentially makes them so resentful that after ruining their reputation they will never pay me unless I sue them;

As you can see I can live with a lot. But I will not accept that you call 3. *accurate* after he scams many many people just like Chino and that you walk away from your responsibility.

I asked for your vouch, I needed your vouch, I relied on your vouch, I relied on your reputation, I acted on your vouch and I didn't got what I rightfully expected!

When you said I was in the wrong I disagreed but wanted to verify what other poker players would say about this to reflect my standpoint as unbiased as I reasonably could. The first player I asked was Brad2002TJ (with whom I always had pleasant factual experiences), I asked:

"Did you ever vouched for someone or asked another poker player to vouch for someone.
And what *did* (or *would* if it never occured to you) you expect before and after the vouched for player pulls a scam/Chino?"

He answered:
"Never. It depends on the vouch. Because I had a staking team I had to give lots of references. I always just give a factual history and recommendation or not. If someone scams in that scenario I don't think the voucher owes anything.

If on the other hand you are personal friends with vouchee and you say he is a person of the highest integrity and someone relies on that and gets scammed, I would expect to pay something but prob not the whole debt. I would also expect that you must actively work to recover funds or have your own reputation ruined."

I agree with Brad2002TJ for over 90% on this. I took your vouch as if Jiacopello was a person of high integrity when you called him a good guy and not out to scam anyone just like I see myself, my good friends and my imagination of isildur1 as persons of high integrity. Since you and Jiacopello were friends and I relied on your vouch and I got scammed I share his conclusion also for over 90%.

And lastly I would like you to know that this sentiment that you and others seem to share that all degens are unreliable and that you should expect nothing than to get scammed when you deal with them very insulting. I hate Chino's but I love nice degens, I think they have great heart and I admire them. I find this sentiment very insulting!

Aleph Omega

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aleph Omega

I digged up the chatlog from right before the loan.
The Manhattan lawyer could argue a lot about it but you should just read it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Boccia

[21:52:31] jiacstrap: im not gonna lose 5k tho
[21:52:36] jiacstrap: just wanted to make it clear before
[21:52:56] Aleph Omega: so if you lose it you can wire it to european bank?
[21:53:16] jiacstrap: I have done that in the past, its a monster fee
[21:53:20] jiacstrap: but I will eat it if I lose
[21:53:30] Aleph Omega: so fee is totally for you?
[21:53:33] jiacstrap: yes fo sure
[21:53:42] jiacstrap: wouldn't make you do any of that if your giving me 5%
[21:53:44] Aleph Omega: so you wont be able to pay me on stars?
[21:53:49] jiacstrap: most likely
[21:53:51] jiacstrap: if I lose say
[21:53:53] jiacstrap: i will find a way
[21:53:57] jiacstrap: to get 4200 ons tars
[21:54:00] jiacstrap: easier less fees
[21:54:03] jiacstrap: but
[21:54:05] jiacstrap: im not gonna lose
[21:54:05] Aleph Omega: how much is your net worth?
[21:54:13] jiacstrap: right under 15k
[21:54:19] jiacstrap: 14 and change
[21:54:21] Aleph Omega: sell breitling to pay for food?
[21:54:27] jiacstrap: if it comes down to it
[21:54:30] Aleph Omega: hehe
[21:54:37] Aleph Omega: so you can start tomorrow?
[21:54:38] jiacstrap: oo net worth
[21:54:48] jiacstrap: i have 14600 in cash right now and 1k in cash on me
[21:54:52] jiacstrap: i have more net tho
[21:54:55] jiacstrap: i can start asap
[21:55:00] Aleph Omega: ok
[21:55:19] Aleph Omega: i can transfer as soon as security gives me higher transfer limits
[21:55:33] jiacstrap: cool, im gnona save some hands from day 1 for sure
[21:55:39] jiacstrap: I will keep them in a notepad, if you want
[21:55:41] jiacstrap: I will run them by you
[21:55:48] jiacstrap: you can just skim therw them, ignore them
[21:55:50] jiacstrap: or look at them lol
[21:55:56] Aleph Omega: thats cool
[21:56:01] jiacstrap: ur def better then me at 180s
[21:56:02] jiacstrap: im rusy
[21:56:03] Aleph Omega: and you pay me back after 1 week?
[21:56:13] jiacstrap: not gonna promise in full 1 wekk
[21:56:14] jiacstrap: week*
[21:56:16] jiacstrap: I will ship yoi
[21:56:17] jiacstrap: you
[21:56:22] jiacstrap: whatever I am up
[21:56:23] jiacstrap: I guess
[21:56:30] jiacstrap: i think i can have it paid off
[21:56:32] jiacstrap: by next weekend
[21:56:41] jiacstrap: i grind hard
[21:56:53] jiacstrap: so that is like, week and a couple days
[21:57:01] Aleph Omega: so max like 2 weeks?
[21:57:04] jiacstrap: yea
[21:57:08] Aleph Omega: ok
[21:57:14] Aleph Omega: hmmmm
[21:57:46] Aleph Omega: should i pm bax/sheets to let them vouch for you?
[22:00:19] Aleph Omega: ?
[22:00:54] jiacstrap: prolly not lol
[22:01:00] jiacstrap: i have tons of references
[22:01:03] jiacstrap: you want a bank statement?
[22:01:26] Aleph Omega: i want one PM on 2+2
[22:01:36] Aleph Omega: make it impressive lol
[22:01:48] jiacstrap: a pm from someone vouching for me?
[22:01:52] Aleph Omega: yea
[22:02:04] jiacstrap: i have mad roommates, im here to grind bro I would never rip anyone off
[22:02:06] jiacstrap: im pretty degen
[22:02:13] jiacstrap: but I don't steal
[22:02:31] jiacstrap: i can get 4k from someone else probably no interest but 5% is nothing and I like u
[22:02:36] Aleph Omega: it feels better to send 4k to someone when its like bax tellings youre ok
[22:02:37] jiacstrap: lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Boccia

Unfortunately at this point you are spamming material that is not relevant to me. It's almost like this is an effort to wear me out. I'm trying to be amicable and respond to you, mostly out of pity, but this is going nowhere.
You are wrong, every neutral person has, and will continue to agree that you are wrong.

The only person that believes in your witch hunt, is you. This should tell you something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aleph Omega

Double PM to wear me out?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Boccia

How can I wear you out when I'm writing accurate well written responses that are way longer than your replies and you feel entitled to just say tl;dr?

My Manhattan lawyers hourly is too high and you don't seem to be willing to discuss any of the points made by him. It is no longer considered being worth the amiable value to continue convincing you to make good on this debt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Boccia

You are wrong, every neutral person has, and will continue to agree that you are wrong.

The only person that believes in your witch hunt, is you. This should tell you something.

FALSE!

"If on the other hand you are personal friends with vouchee and you say he is a person of the highest integrity and someone relies on that and gets scammed, I would expect to pay something but prob not the whole debt. I would also expect that you must actively work to recover funds or have your own reputation ruined." - Brad2002TJ (part 2)

Last edited by Andrew Boccia; 02-12-2013 at 05:53 PM.

Quote

02-12-2013 , 06:32 PM

#15

nomomoney

self-banned

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 128

this is one of the best reads in quite some time

Quote

02-12-2013 , 10:10 PM

#16

brad2002tj

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 12,058

Nothing like getting dragged into an online poker drama almost 2 years after leaving it.

I don't want to get involved in this because I was/am friends with Aleph, but now that my e-mails with Aleph have been posted here I don't think I have a choice because I don't want to leave the wrong impression. I knew nothing of the background of this situation when I made the statements quoted above in a private e-mail with Aleph: it was in response to a out-of-the-blue general question of whether a voucher can be liable for the vouchee's debt.

Having read Boccia's PM, I don't see any way where the PM can be read as a vouch.

I also don't think that, absent fraud, a true vouch gone bad incurs any legal liability. For example, even if the PM said "stakee is a close friend of the highest integrity" the voucher could not be legally liable for recovery of the loss. Voucher would, though, want to preserve his reputation as a person whose word can be trusted, and should thus try and negotiate a settlement with the staker to keep that reputation intact. Or, alternatively, do nothing and lose his reputation (but never lose money involuntarily). That is not the situation here though.

Sorry Aleph, IMHO you lose this one.

Quote

02-13-2013 , 12:42 AM

#17

jaxtraw

old hand

Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 1,357

Aleph,

You are totally out of line here, those pm's are so over the top they border on absurd. Andrew gave you his opinion on the guy, whatever you did with the information is your prerogative. But seriously, wtf were you thinking loaning this guy money after reading what he wrote to you?

Quote

02-13-2013 , 01:14 AM

#18

BreakYaNeck

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,187

Alpha definitely wrong here. Cracks me up that you now think the debt is $3.8 million, shoulda stopped reading after that because you are clearly delusional.

Quote

02-13-2013 , 01:34 AM

#19

Aznpowr11

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,653

simply amazing how delusional some people can be.

3.8 million during the time of the PM, what's the number up to now? lol

Quote

02-13-2013 , 02:18 AM

#20

OMGClayDol

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 11,060

ROFL
Lolol

Was gonna give a standard legit response, which is clearly op isn't responsible (I'm sure he knew this before posting) especially since the PM he sent was not even close to a vouch let alone a recommendation of any sort.. More like a warning screaming do not stake or loan money!

But f lol at those emails.. My favourite part is where he says here are the cliffs then proceeds to write a hundred lines lolooooool

Quote

02-13-2013 , 02:33 AM

#21

Giffordonian

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 21,515

If it's only $3.8 million then why don't you just hurry up and pay the guy back already

seriously though...from what you said to him in your 'vouch' the backer was probably taking on an investment with about a 50% chance of being rolled (that per cent could be off by some margin but certainly gonna be pretty high chance of getting rolled based on what you told him)

Quote

02-13-2013 , 02:38 AM

#22

TheTyman9

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 4,669

Wow those pm's are insane. This guy clearly is just trying to claw back his 4k by any means necessary because you obviously did not say anything that puts you on the hook for his terrible decision to loan that guy money. Just out of curiosity is he trying to get you to give him 4k or some sort of negotiated number btwn 4k and 3.8 million lol?

Quote

02-13-2013 , 02:55 AM

#23

eh777

banned

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 1,746

This is absolutely hillarious. Can't believe how patient you've been, I would've told him to go f*** himself after the 2nd PM.

Your response was a warning, not a vouch. Even if you responded simply saying "yeah I vouch for the guy" you're not signing a personal guarantee for god sake.

The guys pathetic.

Quote

02-13-2013 , 06:24 AM

#24

Zima421

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 18,973

I mean, if he says he vouches for him, then he would owe the 4k or whatever.

the PM is clearly not a vouch though. and aleph saying "thanks for the vouch!" after getting that PM is laughable.

just stop responding to aleph OP. nothing good will come of it and any sane person who reads this thread will not agree with what he is saying.

Quote

02-13-2013 , 06:06 PM

#25

eh777

banned

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 1,746

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zima421

I mean, if he says he vouches for him, then he would owe the 4k or whatever.

Not really, the word vouch is way too vague to mean it being a personal guarantee, from a legal and moral standpoint.

Without actually saying "I vouch for the money" the person owes nothing, and even then it would be a moral issue, and not remotely legally binding.

Quote

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