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Old 07-25-2008, 11:09 AM   #76
KurtSF
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

Good stuff. Thanks.
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Old 07-27-2008, 06:03 PM   #77
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

I haven't seen this addressed directly in the thread, so I thought I'd ask the question specifically. When doing a staking deal, what are the most common ways of getting money from the backer to the player? Is it transferred within the poker site? Done by sending a check? Western Union? I'd like to begin staking a few folks at lower limits, but want to make sure I have the appropriate logistics down before I do so. Thanks for the suggestions.
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Old 07-27-2008, 06:11 PM   #78
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

Normally from Backer > Player across the site they're playing on. Pokerstars and FullTilt both have internal transfer options between players, as do many other big sites.
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Old 07-27-2008, 06:18 PM   #79
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

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Originally Posted by hennnerz View Post
Normally from Backer > Player across the site they're playing on. Pokerstars and FullTilt both have internal transfer options between players, as do many other big sites.
Ah, makes sense then. One things I'd have to do prior to staking is get the appropriate amount of money on the site the player wanted to play on. Once the staking arranagement is complete (# of hands or specific date/time, etc) then the player would just transfer back the winnings (assuming a winning player, obviously)?
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Old 07-27-2008, 07:51 PM   #80
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

Yeah, sounds about right. A few pointers though...You need to state whether the player will get any/all of the rakeback + bonus that they are making while playing. Generally make-up is involved in cash game staking where by if the player has lost over the specified number of hands then they must continue playing rolled by the backer at a level specified by the backer until the money is repaid (normally 100% make-up). This must be agreed on prior to the staking agreement starting.
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Old 07-27-2008, 09:05 PM   #81
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

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Originally Posted by hennnerz View Post
Yeah, sounds about right. A few pointers though...You need to state whether the player will get any/all of the rakeback + bonus that they are making while playing. Generally make-up is involved in cash game staking where by if the player has lost over the specified number of hands then they must continue playing rolled by the backer at a level specified by the backer until the money is repaid (normally 100% make-up). This must be agreed on prior to the staking agreement starting.
hennerz,

Thanks for the reply. Make up generally isn't part of SNG's or MTT's though? More often it's used for cash game staking?

When you've done staking for cash games in the past, what is the minimum number of hands you want to see in order to make it potentially worth your while to stake? If someone averages $4.00/100 hands at NL100, then over 25k hands you'd expect them to have a profit of $1k (if my math is right). Assuming a split of 50/50, then you'd get back the stake plus $500 (50% x 1,000)....am I getting the hang of it?
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Old 07-28-2008, 01:07 AM   #82
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

How many buyins do you guys send to a new horse to start? I saw one guy offering 50 buyins upfront with 50 more behind for 45-man sngs. I would prefer to send fewer than that to keep risk lower, but be able to send more if needed. Any problems with that?
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Old 07-29-2008, 12:22 AM   #83
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

hey I'm a little confused about staking with make-up deals. doesn't make-up just mean that if the backee is down money on the stake, they have to play until the stake is even?

I have a friend who I've loaned money to, backed, etc. who owes me. he's busto, so he can't pay, but (probably) a winner in mtts.

how exactly would you go about continuing to stake him for mtts? would you do it on a tourney-by-tourney basis, with like a 60-40 split (he owes nothing back if he loses), or on a more long-term basis? if you have a long-term mtt staking deal with someone, is 50-50 of profits standard, with the backer getting the amount of the total buyins back?

also, if you're backing someone who already owes you, is the money they make you towards the stake, or is that extra upside?
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Old 07-29-2008, 01:57 AM   #84
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

ok boys and girls,

first guy i staked in april for 100k hands at 100nl has apparently run off with my money (3k), doesnt respond to IM's hasnt been on 2+2 in a month (on his original SN at least), doesn't update me, doesn't respond to e-mails etc.

i did some googling and saw that he has been actively posting on a sportsbetting forum and been claiming on the forum to have been betting since I staked him

i know his real name, home town, myspace, the name address and phone number of his dads company where he works, email addy etc

whats my play?

another guy I staked has also gone awol (yeah i know i pick them well) but I have his blog and posted a comment on it telling him he has some explaining to do but I dont know the goldmine of info about him, not sure what do there other than to comment on his blog


and no need to tell me its risk of staking etc, protect yoruself better im aware and I think i factored all of this into the EV of staking as a whole but still would like to get a hold of my money
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Old 07-29-2008, 03:16 AM   #85
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdm13 View Post
ok boys and girls,

first guy i staked in april for 100k hands at 100nl has apparently run off with my money (3k), doesnt respond to IM's hasnt been on 2+2 in a month (on his original SN at least), doesn't update me, doesn't respond to e-mails etc.

i did some googling and saw that he has been actively posting on a sportsbetting forum and been claiming on the forum to have been betting since I staked him

i know his real name, home town, myspace, the name address and phone number of his dads company where he works, email addy etc

whats my play?

another guy I staked has also gone awol (yeah i know i pick them well) but I have his blog and posted a comment on it telling him he has some explaining to do but I dont know the goldmine of info about him, not sure what do there other than to comment on his blog


and no need to tell me its risk of staking etc, protect yoruself better im aware and I think i factored all of this into the EV of staking as a whole but still would like to get a hold of my money
The whole idea of staking is a scam to the guy on the other end - the stakee - I'd say about 90% of the time. I realize I'm preaching to the choir that you are already painfully aware of this. Been thru it a hundred times and just can't pull the trigger on it anymore other than stakee owes whatever he loses and posts something valuable to cover that. No free lunch, which is what 90% are after. For this he gets much larger piece of potential profits.

Other 10% of horses have my apologies, but I'm not laying 9-to-1 on this con.
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Old 07-29-2008, 06:18 AM   #86
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

Do bankroll requirements change when staking? If you like to have 200 buyins to play MTT's, should you also want 200 per horse?
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Old 07-29-2008, 06:57 PM   #87
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobble_Wobble View Post
hennerz,

Thanks for the reply. Make up generally isn't part of SNG's or MTT's though? More often it's used for cash game staking?

When you've done staking for cash games in the past, what is the minimum number of hands you want to see in order to make it potentially worth your while to stake? If someone averages $4.00/100 hands at NL100, then over 25k hands you'd expect them to have a profit of $1k (if my math is right). Assuming a split of 50/50, then you'd get back the stake plus $500 (50% x 1,000)....am I getting the hang of it?
Yeah that is the gist of it. Make-up can also be used in MTTs and I imagine in STTs. I know that quite a few good MTT players here are in make-up due to be being backed for the bigger live mtts, but not 100% sure how that gets repaid.

In cash game staking you need to ensure that the required # of hands is enough for the true skill level of the player to show through. Generally the lower the number of hands, then greater the % the backer will get, because they are taking a bigger risk (due to variance being such a factor).
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Old 07-29-2008, 07:02 PM   #88
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

Quote:
Originally Posted by schundler View Post
hey I'm a little confused about staking with make-up deals. doesn't make-up just mean that if the backee is down money on the stake, they have to play until the stake is even?

I have a friend who I've loaned money to, backed, etc. who owes me. he's busto, so he can't pay, but (probably) a winner in mtts.

how exactly would you go about continuing to stake him for mtts? would you do it on a tourney-by-tourney basis, with like a 60-40 split (he owes nothing back if he loses), or on a more long-term basis? if you have a long-term mtt staking deal with someone, is 50-50 of profits standard, with the backer getting the amount of the total buyins back?

also, if you're backing someone who already owes you, is the money they make you towards the stake, or is that extra upside?
If you are confident he is a winner in MTTs then you could back him for them, as it is in your interest for him to get money and hence pay you back. You could probably make him play lower than normal to ensure he wins too. Ideally you would get the highest profit % for yourself that he is willing to play for. If he losses then his total make-up amount can become cumulative. I am not sure about standard % splits in mtt staking but you would get the bankroll back and then your % of profits.
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Old 07-29-2008, 07:06 PM   #89
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdm13 View Post
ok boys and girls,

first guy i staked in april for 100k hands at 100nl has apparently run off with my money (3k), doesnt respond to IM's hasnt been on 2+2 in a month (on his original SN at least), doesn't update me, doesn't respond to e-mails etc.

i did some googling and saw that he has been actively posting on a sportsbetting forum and been claiming on the forum to have been betting since I staked him

i know his real name, home town, myspace, the name address and phone number of his dads company where he works, email addy etc

whats my play?
One of the most important things in resolving these situations is obtaining and maintaining contact between all parties involved. If you can talk to the guys and work together to come up with a solution it is easily the best way of dealing with the issue. That said, if you cannot get them to communicate I would imagine you should threaten them with legal action and them potentially follow through with it. If chosen parties are young contacting parents is normally an exceptional way to work towards a resolution.
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Old 07-30-2008, 09:49 PM   #90
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

OK I don't think this has been answered directly, so I apologize if this seems redundant (maybe I am just an idiot).

So if someone is backing me for $500 in cash games what is the usual term of the contract? I see some people are limiting it to a certain number of hands while others are limiting it to a month or some other time frame. What is the standard on microstakes online games?

I had in mind a $500 stake with makeup and then 50/50 until I paid him an additional $500. Have you heard of such a deal before - thoughts on this structure. (This is also a close personal friend so mistrust is not a factor).
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Old 07-31-2008, 05:19 PM   #91
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

Quote:
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So if someone is backing me for $500 in cash games what is the usual term of the contract? I see some people are limiting it to a certain number of hands while others are limiting it to a month or some other time frame. What is the standard on microstakes online games?

I had in mind a $500 stake with makeup and then 50/50 until I paid him an additional $500. Have you heard of such a deal before - thoughts on this structure. (This is also a close personal friend so mistrust is not a factor).
So you're saying the stake ends when your bankroll is $1500? Then 500$ stake is returned, plus his 500$ profit. Then you get $500 as your 50% of the profit?

I think it is rare to see stakes end when a monetary figure is met. But might work for you. The problems may occur in that it is hard to estimate when you will reach a $1.5k bankroll therefore your friend may be out of pocket for quite some time. Generally the smallest stakes for cash games are 50k hands and biggest up to ~500k hands (these are often with coaching).
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Old 07-31-2008, 09:03 PM   #92
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

Quote:
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The whole idea of staking is a scam to the guy on the other end - the stakee - I'd say about 90% of the time. I realize I'm preaching to the choir that you are already painfully aware of this. Been thru it a hundred times and just can't pull the trigger on it anymore other than stakee owes whatever he loses and posts something valuable to cover that. No free lunch, which is what 90% are after. For this he gets much larger piece of potential profits.

Other 10% of horses have my apologies, but I'm not laying 9-to-1 on this con.

When you close every loophole thru which they can screw you with the prenup, they oddly lose all interest in the staking deal they had so aggressively sought. Their mouth falls open when they hear the terms that give them no wiggle room, no free lunch. 90% of the time that is, not 100%. I'm a bit jaded on the subject, about like when The Travelers knock on my door.
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Old 08-05-2008, 04:12 PM   #93
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

I'm interested in the mathematics of staking, as it effects variance and bankroll considerations. We all know what standard staking agreements look like, but has anyone ever sat down and demonstrated that something like 50/50 w/ makeup over say 100k hands is worth x$$ EV with a winrate of y and a sD of z? As most stakes are time-limited, variance becomes a very real phenomena.


Has anyone done anything like this? If not, I might offer some stars$$ to a math undergrad who would.
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Old 08-09-2008, 04:28 PM   #94
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

What are ideal personal details to ask for when staking?
Name
Phone Number
Account Names
Email

Anything else? What would I want/need in case of anything going wrong?

Thanks!
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Old 08-09-2008, 04:40 PM   #95
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niko Bellic View Post
What are ideal personal details to ask for when staking?
Name
Phone Number
Account Names
Email

Anything else? What would I want/need in case of anything going wrong?

Thanks!
AIM or msn too..and some personal details like profession, age...are interesting too
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Old 08-18-2008, 06:37 PM   #96
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

if u were unsure about backing a guy a large amount would u get him to send u some money first?
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Old 08-18-2008, 06:41 PM   #97
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

I don't see what use that would be.
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Old 08-18-2008, 06:55 PM   #98
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

how do you find out if the guy is legit?
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Old 08-18-2008, 07:42 PM   #99
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

1. know them and trust them
2. get references about them from people you know or trust
3. ship them money, and if it comes back, they're legit!

imo

Is it too obvious to say "don't back someone for a large amount if you're unsure about their legitimacy"?
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Old 08-19-2008, 03:53 AM   #100
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Re: ***Official Staking Discussion Thread: Use this thread for staking advice***

question about early termination of cash game stakes:

i saw that in a sample contract above, a clause stated that the contract could be terminated if both parties agreed. wouldn't it make more sense if the contract stated that if either party wanted to terminate the agreement early, it could be terminated (as an extra protection for the backer)?
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