Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > > >

Notices

Staking - Seeking Stakes For 2+2ers seeking stakes.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-10-2014, 11:27 AM   #276
TakenItEasy
old hand
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Playing for thin value.
Posts: 1,767
Re: ***A Guide to Staking Players for Cash Games***

Quote:
Originally Posted by notgoingnewhere View Post
Can somebody please advise me as to what sort of stakee/backer chop % is fair under these terms?

*Backer is providing 100% of the roll for a high stakes live cash game.
* There is no make up
Blinds are going to be 5/10 or 10/20 with the average buyin being in the region of 15k
* The game is going to consist of mainly very rich businessmen who understand the rules of poker but aren't very competent
* The stakee only has experience of cash games up to 2/5 but would have a considerable edge in this game.
With no makeup, if the player takes a big loss early, he has no incentive to get unstuck since he'd be playing for you 100% until he gets back in the black.

If this is an ongoing deal, he may decide to quit early and let you take the hit and start back at even the next time, or worse, he may choose to gamble in some bad spots just to try and get ahead to start earning money for himself since he'd be free rolling with no risk to himself.

You should require at least some percentage of makeup based on what he can afford to discourage gambling in bad spots. I'd say that the amount should be at least be in proportion to being as tough on him as it is on you.

If the player is in desperate need to build a roll or pay off debt, I wouldn't make the deal.

Think of it this way. If the player is running bad and really needs to make some money while you're covering his losses and the game is going to break soon, how tempting would it be for him to get it in as a 60/40 dog. At the very least it encourages bad rationalizations that can be tough enough to avoid even under normal circumstances.

Poker is a game of risk/reward. Take away the risk and it can lead to some very bad habits, especially if stuck early, even if the player hadn't intended to play that way at the start.
TakenItEasy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2014, 04:34 PM   #277
TakenItEasy
old hand
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Playing for thin value.
Posts: 1,767
Re: ***A Guide to Staking Players for Cash Games***

Quote:
Originally Posted by Youtioo View Post
Sorry, this seemed like a good place to ask this. Let's say I have a standard deal 50/50 w/mu over a month long period with an initial stake of 2g
Scenario 1: we cash out profits weekly
Week 1:hes +3000 and we each take 1500 $
Week 2:-1500
Week 3:+2100 1800$ for me and 300$ for him
Week 4:-500 and ships me back my 1500 left,
My total profit :1300$, his total profit :1800$

Now scenario 2:we split profits at the end of the month for these same 4 weeks, he's +3100 at the end of the month and we each get 1550$

Ive read lots of reasons for letting the horse cash out earlier or not letting him do so but this isn't touched upon. Am I missing something here like he should be paying back the losses with his winnings because in extreme cases, (say he made 500$,the first week and lost each week after) he's walking away with money even though we lost money overall.

Thanks for your feedback and sorry if this was the wrong place to ask this, I'm just frustrated looking for an answer and the last time I asked the answer I received was 'that's the risk of being the backer' which is absolutely retarded as any backer would know that the profit and losses depend at all on the payout structure.
After posting a question in this thread last year about structuring any deal that includes no make up, I've had time to think about it and think they're usually a pretty bad idea and there's probably a better way to handle it.

I agree with Orange in that, in your deal, he's basically playing makeup free and free rolling week 4.

Before considering how to handle it, it is somewhat important as to what the player was thinking.

It's probably likely that week 4 being a free roll was an unforeseen consequence from which he happened to benefit. In that case, he should be OK with restructuring future deals to avoid this situation.

If he viewed week 4 as just an extra incentive you were aware of, which seems unlikely, then you may need to renegotiate the next time to give up a little higher percentage to get back the 100% MU. If you don't think he's worth anything extra, then perhaps there was no deal to be made in the first place and the mistake is on you but at least you still came out ahead.

If he knowingly viewed this as a hidden incentive that you didn't realize and took advantage of it, it's a bit of an angle shoot on his part and you may need to be more careful when structuring future deals with him in the future.

For those that argue that you made the deal and shouldn't hold it against that player, I'd agree as to holding up your end of the bargain but that doesn't mean that that player didn't just spend some of his own integrity in the process. I'm not saying it was a huge violation of trust or that he's a bad guy for doing it but I wouldn't treat him as a trusted friend either.

Clearly he'll put his interest ahead of your's so to allow them to gamble in spots that benefit them while hurting you is a bad idea.

Trust can be a valuable commodity that many people seem to throw away too easily these days because they feel they are being clever at no cost to themselves but I'd disagree. Especially when they're in the position of needing to be staked in the first place. When they need backing, their integrity should be guarded as much as their own bank roll because clearly one is directly related to the other.

In any case, I don't think structuring in a free roll situation is a very good practice in general for the reasons I gave in my last post. It's basically investing money that creates incentives that can work against your interest and regardless of if that player takes advantage of it or not you want your money creating incentives that align his interest with yours.

On the other hand, allowing the player to hold the stakes plus winnings for an extended period may also test the limits of your trust if you haven't dealt with the player with that kind of money before. A hot streak may mean you're now trusting the player with $10K instead of $2K or you may have better use for that money in the near term to stake another player.

I think a better method would be to settle up each week but hold his share up to $2K as a deposit against the last weeks make up to be returned after any makeup which is the same as you just keeping the deposit and he keeps the stake.

If he doesn't like the idea of you holding $2K of his money for a month, ask him how that's different from him holding your original $2K stake for a month. You're still at risk if he's a net loser but at least he's never benefiting from your losses even in an EV sense.
TakenItEasy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2014, 02:03 PM   #278
Knusern
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Norway/oslo
Posts: 70
Re: ***A Guide to Staking Players for Cash Games***

What a old tread and still usefull.
Knusern is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 11:56 AM   #279
juustohoyla
stranger
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3
Re: ***A Guide to Staking Players for Cash Games***

Im in talks to stake a player into live cash games. We would both put 50% each towards the roll. We first would put 10BI total and reevaluate if he loses it. What would be standard split for profits? And how many buy ins up would be normal time to change profit split % and what would be new split for longer term stake deal (after he has proven himself as winner in the games and generated more roll for himself aka less need for stake anymore)?

Thanks in advance, im totally new to live staking.
juustohoyla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 12:34 PM   #280
orange
THE WOLF
 
orange's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Staking
Posts: 37,525
Re: ***A Guide to Staking Players for Cash Games***

Quote:
Originally Posted by juustohoyla View Post
Im in talks to stake a player into live cash games. We would both put 50% each towards the roll. We first would put 10BI total and reevaluate if he loses it. What would be standard split for profits? And how many buy ins up would be normal time to change profit split % and what would be new split for longer term stake deal (after he has proven himself as winner in the games and generated more roll for himself aka less need for stake anymore)?

Thanks in advance, im totally new to live staking.
This is more like buying action than actually staking someone (if he's going to take the 50% loss as well). It's a hard call for the above situation and it hinges on if he can actually get a full time stake in the live games (where the backer puts up the entire bankroll/eats the losses and the two chop profits 50/50). If the player CAN get full backing otherwise, the standard starting split would be 50/50 (to start). Obviously full time backing would be much better for the player since he still would get 50% to chop and not have to put up any of the bankroll/take losses.

In this case, if he can't find a full time backer in the live game, he can just sell action like he's doing with you...so I guess the split would be 50/50. If I were the player, I would probably just sell like 25% of my action or just drop down in stakes and take 100% of myself.

Also in this instance, after he generates more winnings and becomes a profitable winner, I think he can make the decision on if he wants to still sell you action or not. It's different than if you were full backing him (you putting up 100% of the bankroll and taking the losses).
orange is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2014, 10:48 PM   #281
juustohoyla
stranger
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3
Re: ***A Guide to Staking Players for Cash Games***

Quote:
Originally Posted by orange View Post
This is more like buying action than actually staking someone (if he's going to take the 50% loss as well). It's a hard call for the above situation and it hinges on if he can actually get a full time stake in the live games (where the backer puts up the entire bankroll/eats the losses and the two chop profits 50/50). If the player CAN get full backing otherwise, the standard starting split would be 50/50 (to start). Obviously full time backing would be much better for the player since he still would get 50% to chop and not have to put up any of the bankroll/take losses.

In this case, if he can't find a full time backer in the live game, he can just sell action like he's doing with you...so I guess the split would be 50/50. If I were the player, I would probably just sell like 25% of my action or just drop down in stakes and take 100% of myself.

Also in this instance, after he generates more winnings and becomes a profitable winner, I think he can make the decision on if he wants to still sell you action or not. It's different than if you were full backing him (you putting up 100% of the bankroll and taking the losses).
Thanks for thorough answer. So i then propose he just sells some action to me and we split profits/losses accordingly. He also has the right to sell what ever % he wants to. It should be clearly +ev for both of us, hence just wondered what would be fair deal to both of us. Thanks again!
juustohoyla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2015, 05:31 PM   #282
alexa1
stranger
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: las vegas
Posts: 3
Re: ***A Guide to Staking Players for Cash Games***

Hello my name is burt boutin i am looking for cash game stake.I live in las vegas i have played all limits in no limit and pot limit omaha.I Am willing to do a 50-50 stake split up daily or weekly or monthly.i am a 2 time bacelet winner 2001 plh 2007 plo i also have 2nd wpt.i have played for over 20 years in las vegas.please call 1 702 373 2098.
alexa1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2015, 05:48 PM   #283
alexa1
stranger
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: las vegas
Posts: 3
Re: ***A Guide to Staking Players for Cash Games***

Hello my name is burt boutin i live las vegas and looking for a 50 50 split daily weekly or monthly.i am a 2 time world series winnner.2001 pot limit holdem and 2007 pot limit omaha and 2nd wpt main event.have over 2.3 million in winnings.have played all limits thanks. Burt boutin 702 373-2098
alexa1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-17-2015, 08:32 PM   #284
agoo758
journeyman
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Hmm
Posts: 249
Re: ***A Guide to Staking Players for Cash Games***

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexa1 View Post
Hello my name is burt boutin i live las vegas and looking for a 50 50 split daily weekly or monthly.i am a 2 time world series winnner.2001 pot limit holdem and 2007 pot limit omaha and 2nd wpt main event.have over 2.3 million in winnings.have played all limits thanks. Burt boutin 702 373-2098
Very good idea posting your phone number.

I am sure you will get a lot of legitimate, very serious calls.
agoo758 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2015, 08:29 AM   #285
y0del
stranger
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1
Re: ***A Guide to Staking Players for Cash Games***

So lets say I'm HU cash player, mostly nl50 to nl100 only on Pokerstars and this is my graph since beginning of 2014


Here is the results tab


Most of my action is bumhunting, but I do play some regs if I feel they are tilted or I have edge in general.

Let's assume I'm legit, I have great track record, there are people in the community who would vouch for me. What would be the reasonable deal to ask from staker --- that's safe for staker and doesn't insult stakee? Thanks!
y0del is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2015, 05:06 PM   #286
IAmRobik
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: twitch.tv/iamrobik
Posts: 10,087
Re: ***A Guide to Staking Players for Cash Games***

Does anyone have a cash games backing contract they're willing to share that they use with their horses?
IAmRobik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2015, 10:55 PM   #287
LoLiWin
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: usa
Posts: 76
Arrow Re: ***A Guide to Staking Players for Cash Games***

I am a professional of 7 years. Right now I play NL 100 200 and omaha on full flush, im a regular and my nickname is LOLIWIN, I live in Houston and i am looking for a live stake to drive to Louisiana which is about less than 2 hours away. There is a series at the casino this week and i would like to be staked in the 500 and 1000 tournament and possibly the cash games. I regularly play the high roller tournaments on FF and I played the high roller on merge for a long time. My cash game results have varied over the years but I usually play 5-10 live and win 3-10 buyins per session. I am cash poor right now as everyone knows payouts are taking a liong time on fullflush and the max withdrawl for WU and MG is only 600 and 680 respectively.
You are pretty much assured to make money on your investment I am looking for a stake for the week and possibly longer if you like the return you are getting. I would usually never take a stake becaues i want 100% of myself, but im in a pickle and coould use the help.
Best,
Loliwin on equity
LoLiWin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-11-2017, 08:45 PM   #288
D1G1TALFOX
banned
 
D1G1TALFOX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Paper Street
Posts: 1,150
Re: ***A Guide to Staking Players for Cash Games***

Post #1



. . .
D1G1TALFOX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2017, 10:17 PM   #289
mrguitarbhoy
stranger
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 6
Re: ***A Guide to Staking Players for Cash Games***

Hey guys I was wondering if you could assist me with a query. I am in the process of organising being backed by a friend of mine to play tournaments on a specific site. We are drawing up an informal agreement/contract on email that we can both agree to (just to have a record of things). I am usually a cash game player on another site but he has made a lot of money in those games and is sure I will be a winning player. He is new to backing and I have never been staked.

The question concerns makeup. My potential backer has a fear that I may end up deep in makeup and decide to quit playing. (we both know each other well and view this as both unlikely to happen and undesirable, but it worries him nonetheless). Is it always the case that the backer ends up basically losing 100% of that makeup money if the stakee decides to quit while in makeup?

That would make the most sense to me and would be what most other explanations of staking would suggest. But my potential backer has suggested for example, if I have played no hands for the duration of a year and am in make up, I have to pay back 25% of my makeup (or something to that effect). Does this sound reasonable?

Has anyone else experienced these kind of stipulations with regard to ending a stake while in makeup? Is there a standard that I'm missing?

Thanks for any advice.
mrguitarbhoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2018, 05:05 AM   #290
japedLor
stranger
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Saint Helena
Posts: 2
Discounts! best hair paste

Discounts! best product awards

[img]http://***********.ru/img/progect11.jpg[/img]
Products which fall under this return policy can be returned domestically, as long as they are unused and in the original packaging. No questions asked!
If a product that falls under this guarantee is found to be counterfeit, you will get a full refund (shipping costs included).

[img]http://***********.ru/buy.png[/img]

READ MORE
rebate example
online buying websites
buy amazon gift card instant
online shipping site
where to buy amazon gift cards online
16.5 tires
disadvantages of online shopping in hindi
online shopping rebates
today's top deal of the day
discount new tires for sale
branded watches online shopping
what is discount interest
benefits of online retailing

CLICK ON THE BANNER
[img]http://***********.ru/img/adaliimg_e/1.jpg[/img]




name or General Scheider's,nike outlet deals she could not be sure.|you then." Thoughtfully,corporate mockup he replaced the receiver. him he a friend of yours?" Catherine asked.Metaxas swallowed,pharmacy2go wondering if he had made a"I can handle it,bitcoin coin " Catherine assured him,next refer a friend code confidently.Larry hesitated a moment,meaning and definition of online shopping tempted to lie. "No,amazon gift card coupon sir."looks so big,online shopping is the best " she said uncertainly. "Are you sure it's
japedLor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-16-2018, 05:06 AM   #291
japedLor
stranger
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Saint Helena
Posts: 2
Discounts! top rated skin care line

Discounts! best make products

[img]http://***********.ru/img/progect11.jpg[/img]
Products which fall under this return policy can be returned domestically, as long as they are unused and in the original packaging. No questions asked!
If a product that falls under this guarantee is found to be counterfeit, you will get a full refund (shipping costs included).

[img]http://***********.ru/buy.png[/img]

READ MORE
next promo code
disadvantages of online shopping essay
Kabden 4L Waist Leg Pack for Outdoor Cycling Practical Tactical Package-14.03 $
pro comp tires
get amazon vouchers
DECAKER Miniature Laser Engraver 500mW DIY Printer 101.79$
today hot deals in online shopping
HOMTOM HT6 4G Phablet-143.89 $
Russian spy ship spotted off of US coast
find best hotel rates
hand mockup free
purchase rebate
buy btc with credit card instant
future value discount rate
Car steering wheel or bike handlebar mobile phone holder stand mount support for iphone 6 6s 3.28$
nike clearance sale 2018

CLICK ON THE BANNER
[img]http://***********.ru/img/adaliimg_e/1.jpg[/img]




and a feeling of relaxation filled her,nike sale discount and she wastogether,Malaysian virgin hair afee hair products malaysian body wave 4pcs unprocessed virgin human hair weave malaysian 56.00$ and as they neared the lobby,nike online shopping discount he mumbled,get a bitcoin walletrode him,buy and sell online moving up and down,quickest way to buy bitcoin her left hand wasThey complemented e!ach other perfectly. They b,lg mobile price list dual sim othAlbert Heller took a sip of wine,discount future value quietly lost intie,the definition of discount et mon ana me dit qu'il en a pique une crise."Private,voucher websites " Ron grinned. He slipped the note into hisAt one end of the defendant's box sat Noelle Page,buy bitcoin via credit cardleaned back in his chair,cheap nike shorts mens a smile touching his lips. Weresmile,save rx discount pharmacy taking her hand in his.meant nothing to her,bitcoin technology nothing. It was the man to whomshe saw was a pretty,gift card website "young,on sale tires intelligent face with a"Nein,tires for less Noel,generic pharma shop " the corporal replied indignantly,fed tax deductions 2018: had to find an excuse to go back into the lobby,computer business card psd to
japedLor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2018, 07:34 AM   #292
foto100k
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 25
Re: ***A Guide to Staking Players for Cash Games***

Excellent post, I've read it all.

I'm about to accept a deal of staking to play on online poker (on some chinnese poker page with weak games) that involves coach. Like 4 hours of coach every weak. I ended without enough bankroll due some bad off poker investment (buying BTC on the worst time).

I'm a Pokerstars reg who play NL50 and NL100 since many years, in my last 400k hands I have a winrate of 7bb/100.

The deal that my I've been proposed is:

I have to put 30% of the Bankroll
The winning are splitted 50%/50%
We start with a 40 buy ins BR on NL100 but we would take shots to higher stakes every time I get the winrate on the previous stake and get enough money to put my 30% on the next stake.
Each 20k hands, I can take out $1000 of my winnings to pay the bills.
And... it is for 18 months.

That sounds good??

Thank you for your answers.
foto100k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2018, 07:51 PM   #293
PokerPlayingGamble
old hand
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,504
Re: ***A Guide to Staking Players for Cash Games***

Quote:
That sounds good??
No, terrible deal. If you put up 30% of the bankroll then you should get 65% of the profits.
PokerPlayingGamble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2018, 07:53 PM   #294
PokerPlayingGamble
old hand
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,504
Re: ***A Guide to Staking Players for Cash Games***

Quote:
Has anyone else experienced these kind of stipulations with regard to ending a stake while in makeup? Is there a standard that I'm missing?
Horse owes 50% of the makeup if they decide to quit while in makeup.
PokerPlayingGamble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2018, 12:26 AM   #295
gay_on_tse
grinder
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 605
Re: ***A Guide to Staking Players for Cash Games***

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerPlayingGamble View Post
Horse owes 50% of the makeup if they decide to quit while in makeup.
it depends, i dont think this is the standard
gay_on_tse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2018, 05:33 AM   #296
PokerPlayingGamble
old hand
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,504
Re: ***A Guide to Staking Players for Cash Games***

Quote:
Originally Posted by gay_on_tse View Post
it depends, i dont think this is the standard

By all means, if you have a better proposal we're all ears.
PokerPlayingGamble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2018, 03:24 PM   #297
MartaDiz
stranger
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 1
, . , , web-, , ! , ...

5 . , , .

, , , ?

MartaDiz is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online