Hmmm... either I was unclear, or your statement is a bit inexact.

If you are saying that there was no formal contract signed, then that was clear from your original post. It was also clear that there was no exchange of: here are the terms of the agreement, yes I agree to those terms.

The backer provided funds. The stakee played using the funds and provided reports to the backer. An agreement definitely exists. It is probable that the backer and stakee have different understandings of the terms of that agreement. However, both have indicated, by their actions, that an agreement does, definitely, exist.

An agreement exists when, by their actions, the parties act as if there is an agreement. This is particularly true when there has been a discussion of said agreement, especially when that discussion was in writing. The default, absent a "No, I don't agree to that" statement by one of the parties, is that the terms are the last ones to be discussed prior to the parties acting on the agreement. It is possible that the exact terms were still in discussion at the point when actions began, but that should be clear in the record of the discussion. If there was not an agreement, at least on the basics, then the parties would not have acted.

It is possible, but unlikely, that this is not the case in the legal jurisdiction of the euro stakee. My knowledge of contractual niceties in the jurisdiction of "euro" is superficial, at best .

Just making 100% certain, if ftp goes bust and I continue staking people I had on there, regardless of whether they pushed to play there instead of stars I eat all risk, right? I.e. if staked a guy on ftp and now send him new money on stars none of his future profits go towards covering the losses on ftp. It seems that as a staker I would have the final say on the sites but thus am also responsible for them. Would like to see what others think.

I was a little unclear as to who was ending the stake, first you said that the staker demanded to end the stake, then you said that the player couldn't play because of problems. If the staker wanted to end the stake then staker takes all losses, if the stakee wants to end the stake in makeup then he has a responsibility to pay the makeup.

lol. you are a trashy individual. Read here.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1158

Interesting note/Question

Saintpoker is a cheat and a scammer, but beyond that there is a marginally interesting question.

For example, we back a player. He get's $10,000 in makeup. We re-load him $2,000 and he cashes out the $2,000 to buy drugs or whatever. We obviously have a right to the $2,000 - I don't think anyone we disagree with that. But what about the makeup? You can't reasonably expect a backer to re-load a player that just stole money. So this player just gets his deal canceled and is free of anything besides the 2k?

Anthony was breaking all of the terms of the stake. He was going on ANOTHER vacation and we asked to "pause the stake and send back money immediately" (not end). We wanted our money back because his volume was extremely low, his updates were non-existent, and we had reason to believe he was lying about his poker info. The day after we "paused" the stake, he went to a "friends house" and lost $2,100.

Also curious to hear how to deal with stakees who have/had money on ftp and keep playing on other sites.

It would be a very unusual situation for the stakee to be the one responsible for any losses to the staking partnership that result from the insolvency, or potential insolvency, of any particular site. For the losses to be ones for which the stakee is personally liable, the loss would need to occur as a result of the stakee performing an action which effectively converts the money to personal use (i.e. using the money for something outside the staking agreement, without the agreement of the backer). If the backer transferred the money to the stakee, not on FTP, and the stakee moved the money onto FTP, over the backer's objections, then the backer would have a reasonable argument. If, further, the backer refused all profit made on FTP then that would significantly strengthen the argument. If the backer accepted any such profits, or even just reloaded the player for any losses resulting from play on FTP, the backer's actions indicate that they have accepted FTP as a site on which play was acceptable. Any communications, preferably written, which the backer had with the stakee would modify whether it was seen as something he/she accepted.

Unless there is something in the contract which indicates that the stakee takes on the responsibility for a loss, it is the backer who takes on the burden of financial loss to the staking partnership. From the stakee's point of view, this is one of the major reasons to be staked. It usually takes an action by the stakee which converts the money to use outside the partnership in order for the stakee to have personal liability for the partnership's financial loss.


You mention the backer having the final say in choosing the site. It is quite reasonable for the backer to make an offer which says that they are only willing to stake on site X. It is also reasonable for the stakee to say they are only willing to play on site Y. Where to play, and what games to play, are something that is part of the negotiations of forming the partnership, and can be part of ongoing, mutual, decisions made in directing the partnership. If they are not able to reach mutual agreement, then there is no need to form the partnership.
[Potential caveat expressed at the end of the post linked here.]

The backer should be mindful to be careful not to assert too much ability to direct the actions taken by the stakee. The amount of control which someone has over another is one of the significant considerations in determining if a relationship is employment, contact work, or a partnership. The lines between these can be very nebulous. In the USA, we have multiple different government entities which each apply their own nebulous, and often subjective, criteria. While a backer does not need to be hyper-sensitive about it, one of the last situations a backer wants to be in is having a stake end badly and the stakee file paperwork with the government claiming that he/she was the backer's employee. An example of, probably, too much direction would be the backer establishing explicit hours during which the stakee is required to grind. It is near-impossible to establish concrete guidelines for where the lines are between these types of relationships. Each situation is looked at individually by the various government agencies. The point is to keep in mind that the stake is a partnership where both parties are mutually benefiting and both members contribute, not a relationship where the backer gets to dictate to the stakee the minutia of the stakee's actions/time.

If a person provides false information which influences your choice to provide him/her money, or obtain something else of value, an argument can be made as to their having committed fraud. If the person did, it opens them up to, potentially, being personally liable for your losses.

Frankly, this situation appears to be well beyond the point where either party should be relying on information provided on an internet forum. From your point of view, the money is, potentially, large enough such that you might want to pursue it through legal channels.

I would suggest that you seek the advise of competent legal council.

Yes, of course, you are due the $2,000. Given this act by the stakee, it is not unreasonable for you to question if the $10,000 was legitimately lost. If it was not legitimately lost under the staking agreement, then you may have an argument for the stakee being personally liable for the $10k.

However, assuming that the $10k was lost legitimately under the staking agreement, no, the stakee does not inherently have personal liability for the $10k. It is possible that the staking agreement has terms covering what happens when the stakee does something, while there is makeup, which clearly creates conditions where no reasonable person would continue to trust the stakee with a bankroll.

Keep in mind that makeup is not a debt owed by the stakee. Under most circumstances, it is not even a debt owed by the partnership to one partner (although it could be written to be so). It is a first call on profits made by the partnership.

Would really appreciate some help got a chance of gettin staked but really confused on some issues hopefully you can help:

I'm asking to be staked for 100nl fr cash games

the backer is offering 50/50 profit no makeup over a minimum of 50k hands

Question -I think this meens *correct me if i'm wrong* whatever amount is given to me to play these stakes say 3k, I must make back the 3k within the 50k hands and whatever else that is made during that 50k hand sample say I made 4k we have 1000 profit which we would split 50/50

now the what if scenario*

what if for whatever reason I somehow manage to loose alot and be down say 1k or more at the end of the month, what happens then? does the no make up meen that money is forever lost by the backer, is the remaining money shipped back to the backer?

Yeah it should mean you don't owe him anything. That backer is taking the rotten end of the deal imo

Question to stakers : how often do you guys split up the funds, and how often / how much do you like your players to withdraw? Do you just do the split at the end of the stake or in between as well? I do it weekly myself. Just thinking there can be a problem with people withdrawing their share and then ending up in make up

Just to be clear since I'm still not 100% on staking total newb when it comes to this.

Example:

I am looking for advice on a staking deal that I am working on with a friend of mine. He is a winning low FL player, mostly by means of rakeback and promos. This is because the rake is so high with respect to the stakes he plays at.

I was wondering how often should ask for updates and payment?
Also, how should I ask for payment/ giving him his stake? Online transfer? Western Union?

Note: We both live in the US but several hundred miles apart

Hey guys i had a question, I'm a 20 year old, NLH cash game player and have been beating the game for over a year now consistently. I work at a GNC selling vitamins and played poker inbetween customers(i know awesome right) I go to CSUF nearly full time and working at the flexible hour vitamin shop is a GREAT college job. Unfortunately, the vitamin world isn't doing great and It might be time for me to cash in my poker expertise time/ability for play poker while I'm in school. I played heads up SNG's and cash games online and logged ALOT of time at my local indian casino playing $1/$3 averaging the 10BB/hour (kept excel spreadsheets).

Where is the best place to pitch myself to a potential investor? I live in So. Cal. and my local indian casino is Morongo (Fishtopia stack off with 10/4cc not even joking/mentally handicap'd people with 1k in front of them etc.) And i just play my regular TAG game extremely profitably their. My only shortfall is that I lack the start up funds I'd like 15-20BI's(3-4K) to play the game the right way. I'd cover traveling expenses and would log 30 hours per week and would like to set up a 50/50 split with my backer and keep my excel spread sheets/contact with him/her daily.

I know the staking forums is good but I don't have many posts and I've already posted in the sub 6 month posters thread. Also online back places (part time poker?) seem to be online only staking?

Sincerely,
Nathan Clauss

You are very unlikely to get live cash backing on here as there is no way to prove your results during a stake. The best thing to do would be to get talking with some of the better regulars at your local game and try and setup a deal with them

Hey guyz, what should be a good deal if I stake someone for 100%, I mean 70+ the BI/30 seems OK? as he would be in a freeroll ?

OK Guys...I have a question. Suppose A buddy pays half of my buy-in for the main event. What percent of my winnings should he get if I cash? In other words. What % of winnings does a 50% of buy in investor get

the cut depends on severall factor...
1.- Variace of the game u wanna back the horse
2.- Profitability of the horse in those games
4.- Sample size of the horse in the games u want to backed the horse
5.- Volume the horse its willing to put out
6.- Lenght of the stake

For instance..If its a high variance game like MTTs, the horse has a solid 25% ROI over 5k MTTs played, you are backing him for like 6-8 months and the horse its capable of playing around 60-100 MTTs a week? Then u ca set a much more fair cut for the horse.
One other thing, stablishing high cut % in backers favor will get u to a situation were ur gonna be more sensitive to backed bad players/investment cuz dont know how many good players are gonna accept a 70/30 cut backers favor unless your backign him for the Sunday Majors or something like that.

i think he means for one tournament....80/20 is pretty standard assuming the player has a 40% ROI in the event, then it's pretty much the same as staking him for half the profit...if you feel the horse has a 60% true ROI in the event then he's worth 70/30

Question: If the buy in = $95 and I stake my friend $40...What should he pay me if he cashes?

Thanks guyz for ur answer.

I have another question, I'd like to stake 2 horses for 2/4€ cash game.

They have to play for 2 months at least once a week.

I'm gonna take 50/50 of the benefits.

I stake them for x maximum buy in.

Is it a standard deal ?

hi there, i have a question regarding managing my staked fund.

brief background: I took a stake from an american player of $70 to play on pokerstars. Managed to run it up quite a bit but then had to cash out some to help with bills. Sent my staker $470 approx, cashed the same out for myself, which left about $500 in stars account.

Question is should i have ended the staking agreement (i earn 50% of any profit i make) or have re-financed it somehow. Am a bit of a noob with regards staking agreements. My staker is pleased so far, just wondering if i'm potentially giving up too much seeing as i've already paid him some profit... he's basically freerolling off me now. should i set a cap on potential return from the money he has left invested in me?

Hi everyone, I'm hoping to get some feedback about getting a long term live backing. I am former sng/mtt player from the US. I have been playing live since black friday, and doing decently. The problem is, hotel rooms and gas is really killing me. Honestly, my online tourney results are not amazing at all.. I have like just under 10k in profit. I do have a lot of experience though, I just never played enough volume and was always too much of a puss to take shots, even if I was rolled. I have watched A LOT of videos, and read/talk strategy with good players. I live right outside NYC, and ideally I would love to find a backer who lives near me, either near nyc, or possibly near AC or Mohegan/Foxwoods. Just wondering if anyone has any feedback, anything at all. I have a few references, but not a ton.