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10-11-2010 , 08:42 PM
Top 1 Percent of Americans Reaped Two-Thirds of Income Gains in Last Economic Expansion
Income Concentration in 2007 Was at Highest Level Since 1928, New Analysis Shows


Quote:
Two-thirds of the nation’s total income gains from 2002 to 2007 flowed to the top 1 percent of U.S. households, and that top 1 percent held a larger share of income in 2007 than at any time since 1928, according to an analysis of newly released IRS data by economists Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez.[1]

During those years, the Piketty-Saez data also show, the inflation-adjusted income of the top 1 percent of households grew more than ten times faster than the income of the bottom 90 percent of households.

The last economic expansion began in November 2001 and ended in December 2007, according to the National Bureau of Economic Research, which means the Piketty-Saez data essentially cover that expansion. The last time such a large share of the income gain during an expansion went to the top 1 percent of households — and such a small share went to the bottom 90 percent of households — was in the 1920s (see Figure 1)


Who did this :

The Share of USA Income gains Going to the Top 1 Percent at Highest Level Since 1920.

1923 to 1929 was 70% to the Richest

1960 to 1969 was 11% to the Richest

1976 to 1979 was 33% to the Richest

1982 to 1989 was 41% to the Richest

1992 to 2000 was 42% to the Richest

2002 to 2007 was 62% to the Richest

…………………………………………………

The Share of USA Income gains Going to the Bottom 90 Percent at the Lowest Level Since 1920.

1923 to 1929 was 18% to the Poorest

1960 to 1969 was 62% to the Poorest

1976 to 1979 was 43% to the Poorest

1982 to 1989 was 22% to the Poorest

1992 to 2000 was 29% to the Poorest

2002 to 2007 was 12% to the Poorest

Who did this?

Spoiler:
10-11-2010 , 08:43 PM
How Intellectual Property Hampers Capitalism | Stephan Kinsella
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWShFz4d2RY

Presented by Stephan Kinsella at the 2010 Mises Institute Supporters Summit: "The Economic Recovery: Washington's Big Lie." Recorded in Auburn, Alabama; 8 October 2010.

---

One of his better talks about it imo. (beginning regarding the history was very solid, ending could have been better)
10-11-2010 , 08:45 PM
^ awesome pic

Last edited by Jupiter0; 10-11-2010 at 08:47 PM. Reason: FED bubble
10-12-2010 , 08:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielsio
How Intellectual Property Hampers Capitalism | Stephan Kinsella
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWShFz4d2RY

Presented by Stephan Kinsella at the 2010 Mises Institute Supporters Summit: "The Economic Recovery: Washington's Big Lie." Recorded in Auburn, Alabama; 8 October 2010.

---

One of his better talks about it imo. (beginning regarding the history was very solid, ending could have been better)
Go go anti-IP

10-12-2010 , 09:58 AM
gogogogogo antiIP


i remember some talk about IP laws a few months ago. i was pro IP and then i read like 2 hours worth of anti IP material and now im hardcore anti IP.

does anyone have links that are pro anti IP? im not sure what i had read
10-12-2010 , 10:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fluorescenthippo
gogogogogo antiIP


i remember some talk about IP laws a few months ago. i was pro IP and then i read like 2 hours worth of anti IP material and now im hardcore anti IP.

does anyone have links that are pro anti IP? im not sure what i had read


-



-

10-12-2010 , 11:44 AM
Wall Street Pay: A Record $144 Billion
Quote:
Pay on Wall Street is on pace to break a record high for a second consecutive year, according to a study conducted by The Wall Street Journal.

About three dozen of the top publicly held securities and investment-services firms—which include banks, investment banks, hedge funds, money-management firms and securities exchanges—are set to pay $144 billion in compensation and benefits this year, a 4% increase from the $139 billion paid out in 2009, according to the survey. Compensation was expected to rise at 26 of the 35 firms.

The data showed that revenue was expected to rise at 29 of the 35 firms surveyed, but at a slower pace than pay. Wall Street revenue is expected to rise 3%, to $448 billion from $433 billion, despite a slowdown in some high-profile activities like stock and bond trading.
Compensation at Wall Street Firms

Overall, Wall Street is expected to pay 32.1% of its revenue to employees, the same as last year, but below the 36% in 2007. Profits, which were depressed by losses in the past two years, have bounced back from the 2008 crisis. But the estimated 2010 profit of $61.3 billion for the firms surveyed still falls about 20% short from the record $82 billion in 2006. Over that same period, compensation across the firms in the survey increased 23%.

...

The pay numbers show that firms, benefiting from low interest rates and strong international markets, continue to base their pay on economic and market conditions rather than the level of pressure coming from regulators in Washington and overseas.
...
10-12-2010 , 03:05 PM
Clarke and Dawe discuss the European economy. Hilarity ensues.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D0VhS8qXT0
10-12-2010 , 03:22 PM
Found this today and thought I'd share:
Israel Kirzner - History of the Austrian School (videotaped lecture, 1h20m)
10-13-2010 , 03:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.R.
Go go anti-IP




Damn you J. R.

I had things to do.

This is an area I haven't given much thought to and now I have to. I've read the links and will dive into the book later. I understand the basic logical arguments, but I am still trying to get my head around a world without IP. I can easily see a world without patents, and can vaguely picture one without copyrights. Trademarks on the other hand are my biggest concern. It seems like this would create a huge information problem and I have no idea how it would be overcome.

If I have heard that Bob makes great widgets, how can I buy one of Bob's widgets unless I buy it directly from Bob himself? How can Bob ever build his widget company if he has to personally sell each widget?

It is very cool that the authors of the book make it available for free download.
10-13-2010 , 09:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroPointMachine
I can easily see a world without patents, and can vaguely picture one without copyrights. Trademarks on the other hand are my biggest concern. It seems like this would create a huge information problem and I have no idea how it would be overcome.

If I have heard that Bob makes great widgets, how can I buy one of Bob's widgets unless I buy it directly from Bob himself? How can Bob ever build his widget company if he has to personally sell each widget?
Trademark is like a sign or logo, like McDonald's Arches.

Agency law, or the ability to hire people to work on your behalf, is different. Bob can hire people to help, he just can't sue people who make knock-offs for trademark.

Quote:
From what I've seen, it is clear to most activist-opponents of IP that copyright and patent are terrible. But it is not so clear what is wrong with other types of IP, such as trade secret and trademark. ....

Trademark

So we come to trademark. I deal with this on pp. 58-59 of Against Intellectual Property, and also in some detail in Reply to Van Dun: Non-Aggression and Title Transfer (esp. pp. 59-63). In my view, the new-fangled extensions of trademark law--rights against "trademark dilution" and cybersquatting, etc.--are obviously invalid. Further, federal trademark law is problematic since it is not authorized in the Constitution (copyright and patent are, but not trademark; trademark relies on the Interstate Commerce Clause, and thus the federal trademark law only covers trademark connected to interstate commerce, and does not preempt state law, so that state trademark law still governs many intra-state situations).

But even if federal trademark law were abolished, as well as modern extensions such as rights against trademark dilution, even common law trademark is problematic, for three primary reasons. First, it is enforced by the state, which gets everything wrong. Second (see First), the test of "consumer confusion" is usually applied ridiculously, treating consumers like indiscriminating idiots. Third, and worst of all, the right at issue is the right of the defrauded consumer, not the competitor. Trademark law ought to be reformed by abolishing the right of trademark "owners" to sue "infringers" (except perhaps as proxy for customers, when consent can be presumed or proved), and treating this as a case of the customer's right to sue a vendor who defrauds him as to the nature of the good purchased. Some might argue that this is only a minor change, but it is not: such a change would make it clear that "knockoffs" are usually not a violation of anyone's rights: the buyer of a $10 "Rolex" is almost never defrauded--he knows what he's getting. Yet by giving an enforceable trademark right to the user of a mark, he can sue knockoff companies even though their customers are not defrauded and in fact are perfectly happy to buy the knockoff products.

By the way, examples of trademark abuse are legion. It's not only copyright and patent that give rise to outrageous examples of injustice. See, e.g., Chip Wood, A Bully-Boy Beer Brewer; Justin Levine, 9th Circuit Appeals Court Says Its Ok To Criticize Trademarks After All, Against Monopoly (09/26/2007); Kinsella, Trademarks and Free Speech, Mises Blog (Aug. 8, 2007); Kinsella, Beemer must be next... (BMW, Trademarks, and the letter "M"), Mises Blog (Mar. 20, 2007); Kinsella, Hypocritical Apple (Trademark), Mises Blog (Jan. 11, 2007); ECJ: "Parmesian" Infringes PDO for "Parmigiano Reggiano", I/P Updates (Feb. 27, 2008); Engadget Mobile Threatened For Using T-Mobile's Trademarked Magenta, Techdirt (Mar. 31, 2008).

Now IP proponents often assume trademark law is unproblematic, and then try to lump types of IP together, so that they stand or fall together. For example it could be argued that if you are for reputation, then you must be for trademark; and if you are for trademark, you must be for "intellectual property"; and thus, you cannot be opposed to IP in principle, so you cannot oppose copyright and patent. (See, e.g., the comments here, making this argument.)

Now one fallacy of this argument is that it relies on the positive law conceptual grouping of different areas of artificial, legislated law to make its point. But there is no reason one has to favor the validity of copyright or patent law, even if one supported trademark law, say. Each has different defects and a different nature.

The other fallacy is the view at work here that there is no such thing as reputation, or even identity, absent trademark law. But this is incorrect. Of course people and firms can have reputations even if trademark law is nonexistent. All that is required is that people be able to identify other people and firms, and communicate. Pro-trademark arguments often implicitly assume that this is not possible, absent state-enforced trademark law, which is ridiculous. For example, how can there be fraud (as in my theory), if the vendor is free to call himself whatever he wants? What if Joe Schmoe sets up a knockoff McDonald's restaurant? Well, it is McDonald's--that's what it calls itself, and the "real" McDonald's can't stop it without trademark rights--so why is it fraud? Well, because the consumer is (per assumption) deceived as to the nature of the goods he is buying. As I argued in Reply to Van Dun (pp. 62-63),

"this response would be easy to overcome. It need only be possible for the customer to adequately identify what the condition is. Language is not infinitely malleable, and communication is (undeniably) possible. If pressed, the customer could specify that the purchase is conditioned on the current store he is in being owned by the same [McDonald's] company first started at such and such date and address, and so on. There is no reason it would be impossible to identify a given vendor without traditional trademark law, just as it is not impossible to identify fellow humans, despite the fact that we do not usually have trademarks on our names (in fact often have identical names, e.g. John Smith).

The other thing to realize is that consumers are not stupid. They can spot a knockoff easily. And the trademark frauds are usually going to be marginal low-life types, who could never compete with a legitimate business anyway--the kind of company that makes knockoff Rolexes, which doesn't fool its customers.

Consider. You have a successful burger joint, let's call it "Tommy's." Now, suppose they have no trademark, and other Tommy's pop up. So if you want the original Tommy's, where do you go? You go to the original Tommy's. Which just calls itself The Original Tommy's. (A similar phenomenon is in Twitter, where some well-known people and celebrities' names are taken, like dvorak--so John Dvorak just goes by "THErealDVORAK". End of problem. No anti-Twittersquatting law needed.)

If some other Tommy's tries to deceive customers into thinking it's owned by the same guy that owns the original Tommy's, then they are eventually going to get sued. Or have only marginal customers as people figure out this new place is run by seedy liars.

The truth is that any legitimate businessman wants to use a unique name. Just like people manage to distinguish their identities, even when they have the same names.
http://www.againstmonopoly.org/index...56000000000543

===============

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroPointMachine
It is very cool that the authors of the book make it available for free download.
10-13-2010 , 09:13 AM
Greg Mankiw is a clown, but you knew this - "I Can Afford Higher Taxes. But They’ll Make Me Work Less."

Quote:
...And I acknowledge that my motives in taking on extra work are partly mercenary. I don’t want to move to a bigger house or buy that Ferrari, but I hope to put some money aside for my three children. They will never lead lives of leisure, but I hope they won’t have to struggle to find down payments to buy their own homes or to send their kids to college.

Suppose that some editor offered me $1,000 to write an article. If there were no taxes of any kind, this $1,000 of income would translate into $1,000 in extra saving. If I invested it in the stock of a company that earned, say, 8 percent a year on its capital, then 30 years from now, when I pass on, my children would inherit about $10,000. That is simply the miracle of compounding.

Now let’s put taxes into the calculus. First, assuming that the Bush tax cuts expire, I would pay 39.6 percent in federal income taxes on that extra income. Beyond that, the phaseout of deductions adds 1.2 percentage points to my effective marginal tax rate. I also pay Medicare tax, which the recent health care bill is raising to 3.8 percent, starting in 2013. And in Massachusetts, I pay 5.3 percent in state income taxes, part of which I get back as a federal deduction. Putting all those taxes together, that $1,000 of pretax income becomes only $523 of saving.

And that saving no longer earns 8 percent. First, the corporation in which I have invested pays a 35 percent corporate tax on its earnings. So I get only 5.2 percent in dividends and capital gains. Then, on that income, I pay taxes at the federal and state level. As a result, I earn about 4 percent after taxes, and the $523 in saving grows to $1,700 after 30 years.

Then, when my children inherit the money, the estate tax will kick in. The marginal estate tax rate is scheduled to go as high as 55 percent next year, but Congress may reduce it a bit. Most likely, when that $1,700 enters my estate, my kids will get, at most, $1,000 of it.

HERE’S the bottom line: Without any taxes, accepting that editor’s assignment would have yielded my children an extra $10,000. With taxes, it yields only $1,000. In effect, once the entire tax system is taken into account, my family’s marginal tax rate is about 90 percent. Is it any wonder that I turn down most of the money-making opportunities I am offered?

By contrast, without the tax increases advocated by the Obama administration, the numbers would look quite different. I would face a lower income tax rate, a lower Medicare tax rate, and no deduction phaseout or estate tax. Taking that writing assignment would yield my kids about $2,000. I would have twice the incentive to keep working.
Nominal fallacy much?
10-13-2010 , 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom.fries
what do y'all think about this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uWCO...layer_embedded
this is just rubbish and as said over simplified, the process of money creation is no secret and is taught at intro to economics classes, or just google fractional reserve banking system
10-13-2010 , 12:02 PM
Lol @ copyrighting that book. Goes to show how much he cares about the topic

On a totally unrelated bragworthy note...as of today I own the fine leather edition of An Austrian Perspective on the History of Economic Thought

Last edited by clowntable; 10-13-2010 at 12:10 PM.
10-13-2010 , 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by clowntable
Lol @ copyrighting that book. Goes to show how much he cares about the topic
+1 for epic fail

The book is published for free, legally, online (LDO).

I posted a link to the free publication on their website, here it is again http://levine.sscnet.ucla.edu/genera...ainstfinal.htm

Go read chapter 2. The authors are not against idea originators getting paid.

They have made the book free while also selling it, and they even detail in chapter 2 how a profit can be made for copyright-less works when the same copies are available for free on the internet.

Mises publishes it because most everybody at Mises thinks its the greatest anti-IP book ever written and they want people to read it but also know that most of the loons that frequent LvMI overreact and dismiss out of hand stuff that doesn't say LvMI, even though most of the good libertarian and free market scholarship today has little to nothing to do with LvMI.
10-13-2010 , 01:58 PM
Quote:
Further, federal trademark law is problematic since it is not authorized in the Constitution (copyright and patent are, but not trademark; trademark relies on the Interstate Commerce Clause, and thus the federal trademark law only covers trademark connected to interstate commerce, and does not preempt state law, so that state trademark law still governs many intra-state situations).
I don't see how "It is not in the Constitution" is a valid argument against trademarks, but "It is in the Constitution" is not a valid argument for patents and copyrights. I do agree that the current legal interpretations of trademark infringement and brand damage have been extended past the point of ridiculous.

Quote:
Now IP proponents often assume trademark law is unproblematic, and then try to lump types of IP together, so that they stand or fall together. For example it could be argued that if you are for reputation, then you must be for trademark; and if you are for trademark, you must be for "intellectual property"; and thus, you cannot be opposed to IP in principle, so you cannot oppose copyright and patent. (See, e.g., the comments here, making this argument.)

Now one fallacy of this argument is that it relies on the positive law conceptual grouping of different areas of artificial, legislated law to make its point. But there is no reason one has to favor the validity of copyright or patent law, even if one supported trademark law, say. Each has different defects and a different nature.
I am not trying to lump all IP law together. I have yet to see the differences identified by the author. Seems like he is lumping them together.

Quote:
The other fallacy is the view at work here that there is no such thing as reputation, or even identity, absent trademark law. But this is incorrect. Of course people and firms can have reputations even if trademark law is nonexistent. All that is required is that people be able to identify other people and firms, and communicate. Pro-trademark arguments often implicitly assume that this is not possible, absent state-enforced trademark law, which is ridiculous. For example, how can there be fraud (as in my theory), if the vendor is free to call himself whatever he wants? What if Joe Schmoe sets up a knockoff McDonald's restaurant? Well, it is McDonald's--that's what it calls itself, and the "real" McDonald's can't stop it without trademark rights--so why is it fraud? Well, because the consumer is (per assumption) deceived as to the nature of the goods he is buying. As I argued in Reply to Van Dun (pp. 62-63),
How can you identify people and firms?

Quote:
There is no reason it would be impossible to identify a given vendor without traditional trademark law, just as it is not impossible to identify fellow humans, despite the fact that we do not usually have trademarks on our names (in fact often have identical names, e.g. John Smith).
How exactly does the author intend to identify fellow humans? I'm guessing he is not in favor of state issued ID. Stating that something is not impossible does not make it a superior solution.

Quote:
The other thing to realize is that consumers are not stupid. They can spot a knockoff easily.
I feel like McDonalds and Rolex are being intentionally used as deceptive examples. They are extremes. I don't care if the company I buy a hamburger from is the same one that spent $1 Billion dollars advertising it. I can easily decide if the hamburger in front of me is a good value. OTH, if I am spending $30,000 on a watch, I can certainly see investing enough time to make sure the diamonds are real. It is all the stuff in the middle, like my $300 golf club, that causes a problem. I can't tell if it is a titanium Cleveland driver or a steel club with Cleveland markings.

Quote:
And the trademark frauds are usually going to be marginal low-life types, who could never compete with a legitimate business anyway--the kind of company that makes knockoff Rolexes, which doesn't fool its customers.
Again, with the circular reasoning. I thought one of the main arguments against IP was that it stifles competition and harms consumers. If trademarks frauds can't compete anyway then what is the harm of having reasonable trademark protection?

Quote:
Consider. You have a successful burger joint, let's call it "Tommy's." Now, suppose they have no trademark, and other Tommy's pop up. So if you want the original Tommy's, where do you go? You go to the original Tommy's. Which just calls itself The Original Tommy's. (A similar phenomenon is in Twitter, where some well-known people and celebrities' names are taken, like dvorak--so John Dvorak just goes by "THErealDVORAK". End of problem. No anti-Twittersquatting law needed.)

If some other Tommy's tries to deceive customers into thinking it's owned by the same guy that owns the original Tommy's, then they are eventually going to get sued. Or have only marginal customers as people figure out this new place is run by seedy liars.

The truth is that any legitimate businessman wants to use a unique name. Just like people manage to distinguish their identities, even when they have the same names.
I don't follow this at all. He states that every business wants a unique name and all you have to do is change your name whenever someone else decides to copy yours...


I believe trademarks are different from patents and copyrights in that a trademark is an implied contract between the manufacturer and the consumer. Contracts are not IP and the anti-IP arguments do not apply. Contracts must be protected. You can do what you want with your property. But, just because you own paper and pen does not mean you can write a contract with my name on it.
10-13-2010 , 06:01 PM
Personally I'm quite interested in all sorts of IP issues because I used to work in Open Source software development which can be seen as either the biggest supporters of IP out there or guys trying to get rid of IP but working within the system depending on how you look at it (and you'll meet both sides of the spectrum but usually the pro IP folks are found way more often)

I think the most interesting idea is actually providing certain stuff for free and asking for donations and/or donations for a future project. I.e. you produce a couple of episodes of a random comedy show you came up with and won't do the next one untill you have reached X-money in donations (i.e. the general idea would be that people would be willing to pay to keep stuff they like around/have it improved)

Second business model is obviously only making money from stuff you can monetize via property rights i.e. free songs and money for concerts and whatnot

Quote:
How can you identify people and firms?
Quote:
How exactly does the author intend to identify fellow humans? I'm guessing he is not in favor of state issued ID. Stating that something is not impossible does not make it a superior solution.
A probably rather unpracticall/strange way I can think off would be public/private key encryption
10-13-2010 , 06:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroPointMachine
I don't see how "It is not in the Constitution" is a valid argument against trademarks, but "It is in the Constitution" is not a valid argument for patents and copyrights. I do agree that the current legal interpretations of trademark infringement and brand damage have been extended past the point of ridiculous.

He is a lawyer making a legal argument about the scope of federal power under the commerce clause. That other IP areas do not present the same objection does not mean they are legitimate, its means that objection can't be raised against them.

I am not trying to lump all IP law together. I have yet to see the differences identified by the author. Seems like he is lumping them together.

The ostrich defense - I'm sorry you haven't read anything on this by Mr. Kinsella, but thanks for trolling

How can you identify people and firms?

Using the five sense? Seriously

How exactly does the author intend to identify fellow humans? I'm guessing he is not in favor of state issued ID. Stating that something is not impossible does not make it a superior solution.

Using the five sense? Seriously

I feel like McDonalds and Rolex are being intentionally used as deceptive examples. They are extremes. I don't care if the company I buy a hamburger from is the same one that spent $1 Billion dollars advertising it. I can easily decide if the hamburger in front of me is a good value. OTH, if I am spending $30,000 on a watch, I can certainly see investing enough time to make sure the diamonds are real. It is all the stuff in the middle, like my $300 golf club, that causes a problem. I can't tell if it is a titanium Cleveland driver or a steel club with Cleveland markings.

So what is your objection then - there isn't much difference, hence the whole "pretextual justification for IP- consumer protection" - fails

Again, with the circular reasoning. I thought one of the main arguments against IP was that it stifles competition and harms consumers. If trademarks frauds can't compete anyway then what is the harm of having reasonable trademark protection?

Because trademark laws insulate oligarchic interest from legitimate business threats, but thanks again for the ridiculous strawman

I don't follow this at all. He states that every business wants a unique name and all you have to do is change your name whenever someone else decides to copy yours...

His point is that you don't need trademark law to establish a unique identity

I believe trademarks are different from patents and copyrights in that a trademark is an implied contract between the manufacturer and the consumer. Contracts are not IP and the anti-IP arguments do not apply. Contracts must be protected. You can do what you want with your property. But, just because you own paper and pen does not mean you can write a contract with my name on it.

So you are for or against this implied contract theory? His point is trademark is a fraud issue between consumer and the retailer, not an issues between retailers. The right aggrieved so the one who purchased under false pretenses
Thanks for paying the trolling game, next time maybe read it instead of just setting out to misrepresent it.

On to ignore
10-13-2010 , 06:57 PM
If you can't tell the difference then it doesn't matter. If you can tell the difference then what's the problem?
10-13-2010 , 08:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.R.
Thanks for paying the trolling game, next time maybe read it instead of just setting out to misrepresent it.

On to ignore
Wow! Did you really read my posts regarding this topic and instantly jump to this conclusion.

I thought I was asking some basic questions based on the text you posted to help me understand it a little better. I have every intention of reading the book. I believe I said that the anti-IP argument makes sense with regard to patents and copyrights, but I was having trouble extending it to trademarks.

You seem to have a wealth of knowledge regarding the subject and I thought maybe I could lazily pry some of it out of you before reading the whole book.
10-13-2010 , 08:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlbertoKnox
If you can't tell the difference then it doesn't matter. If you can tell the difference then what's the problem?
I guess warranty issues and customer loyalty.

Let's say I go to a retailer that is selling look-a-like Nike's at a cheap price. They are indistinguishable from the real Nike's at the store up the street. I decide to buy a pair. Two days later the seam splits open. I go back to the store. They say "Oh yeah that happens once in awhile. Go ahead and pick out another pair". I exchange them for a pair of Reeboks instead. They hold up well enough and I decide I'll stick with Reeboks in the future.

Who was harmed?

I got a pair of shoes that seem like a reasonable value to me. The retailer doesn't care because the 10% of fake Nike's that he exchanges or refunds doesn't put a dent in his profit margin given their low wholesale price from their manufacturer. Nike, however, has lost all my future business. The retailer could eventually lose customers, and even go out of business, if too many of his products are fakes, or if the failure rate of the fakes is too high. But if the quality of fakes is close enough and the mix of fake and real products is reasonable he may stay in business forever.
10-13-2010 , 09:51 PM
Are you saying someone might want to be loyal and can't figure out who the real company they want to be loyal to is?

If someone sells some offers a warranty and doesn't provide it that is the same as any other product being offered and not delivered, the logo doesn't change anything, the person who sold it to you is still responsible.
10-14-2010 , 02:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlbertoKnox
Are you saying someone might want to be loyal and can't figure out who the real company they want to be loyal to is?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlbertoKnox
If someone sells some offers a warranty and doesn't provide it that is the same as any other product being offered and not delivered, the logo doesn't change anything, the person who sold it to you is still responsible.
I partially agree. The seller is responsible for the warranty. He can replace the item or refund the purchase. That doesn't mean the seller can't still make a profit selling fakes while honoring the warranty of the real item. It depends on the profit margin on the fakes compared to the cost of honoring the real warranty. However, all the customer sees is an item that did not live up to expectations. An item most easily identified with a logo or brand.

It is often stated by ACist among others that in a truly free market independent agencies would fill the need for safety or quality certifications/standards in areas that the market demanded them. I can see that. I am a big fan. But it seems to me that trademarks are a necessary part of making this work. "UL Listed" on your electric motor doesn't mean anything without trademark protection.

I am always adamantly in favor of a free market solution. IP is not an area I have studied. In the little bit of time I've spent looking into it I feel that the anti-IP case is very strong re:copyrights and patents. When I get the chance to put some time into researching it further I may feel the same way about trademarks, but i don't see it yet.

Trying to discuss things you know too little about on these forums is always a double edged sword. Sometimes, others can put you on the fast track to understanding ideas you hadn't even considered. Other times, it gets you labeled as a troll.

There is no emoticon for inquisitiveness and I seem to have a knack for appearing argumentative in text.
10-14-2010 , 06:32 AM
Never read an anti IP arguement that dealt with how start ups would happen with out it.

If you know the moment you goto market someone else who has better economies of scale and market share/facing distribution etc can just copy it and push you entirely out of the loop, why would venture capital ever invest in a start up?

Ip protects investment, therefore in sum imo it protects and nurtures innovation. I can see the reasons why it can stimmy innovation, but only in more mature technologies.

If you invent super widget X that the world has never seen, and their is no IP, the only way you could take it to market would be to goto OMNICORP, as they would just rip it off anyway.

Anti IP proponents seem to think IP laws make Corporations stronger, to me no IP would mean that they would have a total monopoly over innovation.

Also I dont think it is a binary case of either their is IP or there is not.

      
m