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November Low Economic Content Thread November Low Economic Content Thread

11-28-2009 , 03:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nielsio
Morality is an important topic and hasn't been sufficiently tackled before, imo. When I raised the question (to ACists) about why murder and stealing is bad, I didn't get an answer that could answer any follow-up questions (with only a minor exception).
I always start with Mises = peaceful cooperation (Voluntarism) is a precondition for most other values.

Quote:
Morality consists in the regard for the necessary requirements of social existence that must be demanded of each individual member of society. A man living in isolation has no moral rules to follow. He need have no qualms about doing anything he finds it to his advantage to do, for he does not have to consider whether he is not thereby injuring others. But as a member of society, a man must take into consideration, in everything he does, not only his own immediate advantage, but also the necessity, in every action, of affirming society as such. For the life of the individual in society is possible only by virtue of social cooperation, and every individual would be most seriously harmed if the social organization of life and of production were to break down. In requiring of the individual that he should take society into consideration in all his actions, that he should forgo an action that, while advantageous to him, would be detrimental to social life, society does not demand that he sacrifice himself to the interests of others. For the sacrifice that it imposes is only a provisional one: the renunciation of an immediate and relatively minor advantage in exchange for a much greater ultimate benefit. The continued existence of society as the association of persons working in cooperation and sharing a common way of life is in the interest of every individual. Whoever gives up a momentary advantage in order to avoid imperiling the continued existence of society is sacrificing a lesser gain for a greater one.

The meaning of this regard for the general social interest has frequently been misunderstood. Its moral value was believed to consist in the fact of the sacrifice itself, in the renunciation of an immediate gratification. One refused to see that what is morally valuable is not the sacrifice, but the end served by the sacrifice, and one insisted on ascribing moral value to sacrifice, to renunciation, in and for itself alone. But sacrificing is moral only when it serves a moral end. There is a world of difference between a man who risks his life and property for a good cause and the man who sacrifices them without benefiting society in any way.

Everything that serves to preserve the social order is moral; everything that is detrimental to it is immoral. Accordingly, when we reach the conclusion that an institution is beneficial to society, one can no longer object that it is immoral. There may possibly be a difference of opinion about whether a particular institution is socially beneficial or harmful. But once it has been judged beneficial, one can no longer contend that, for some inexplicable reason, it must be condemned as immoral.
http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=c...html&Itemid=27

Quote:
The ultimate yardstick of justice is conduciveness to the preservation of social cooperation. Conduct suited to preserve social cooperation is just, conduct detrimental to the preservation of society is unjust. There cannot be any question of organizing society according to the postulates of an arbitrary preconceived idea of justice. The problem is to organize society for the best possible realization of those ends which men want to attain by social cooperation. Social utility is the only standard of justice
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a


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From this simple Mises to AC I go to something short like Jesus Huerta de Soto's Classical Liberalism versus Anarchocapitalism, an excerpt form


Quote:
This revision must begin with an acknowledgement that classical liberals have failed in their attempt to limit the power of the state and that today economic science is in a position to explain why this failure was inevitable. The next step is to focus on the dynamic theory of the entrepreneurship-driven processes of social cooperation that give rise to the spontaneous order of the market. This theory can be expanded and transformed into a full-fledged analysis of the anarchocapitalist system of social cooperation, which reveals itself as the only system that is truly viable and compatible with human nature.
...
Quote:
Anarchocapitalism as the Only Possible System of Social Cooperation Truly Compatible with Human Nature

Statism runs counter to human nature, since it consists of the systematic, monopolistic exercise of a coercion which, in all areas where it is felt (including those corresponding to the definition of law and the maintenance of public order), blocks the creativity and entrepreneurial coordination which are precisely the most typical and essential manifestations of human nature. Furthermore, as we have already seen, statism fosters and drives irresponsibility and moral corruption, as it diverts the focus of human behavior toward a privileged pulling on the reins of political power, within a context of ineradicable ignorance that makes it impossible to know the costs of each government action. The above effects of statism appear whenever a state exists, even if every attempt is made to limit its power, an unattainable goal which renders classical liberalism a scientifically unfeasible utopia.
,,,
Quote:
Anarchocapitalism (or "libertarianism") is the purest representation of the spontaneous market order in which all services, including those of defining law, justice, and public order, are provided through an exclusively voluntary process of social cooperation, which thus becomes the focal point of research in modern economic science. In this system, no area is closed to the drive of human creativity and entrepreneurial coordination, and hence efficiency and fairness increase in the solution of problems, and all of the conflicts, inefficiencies, and maladjustments which bodies with a monopoly on violence (states) invariably cause simply by virtue of existing, are eradicated.

Moreover, the proposed system eliminates the corrupting incentives created by the state, and in contrast fosters the most moral and responsible human behaviors, [B]while preventing the emergence of any monopolistic body (state) which legitimizes the systematic use of violence and the exploitation of certain social groups (those which have no choice but to obey) by others (those which at any time have the tightest hold on the reins of state power).

Anarchocapitalism is the only system which fully recognizes the free, creative nature of human beings and their perpetual capacity to internalize increasingly moral behavior patterns in an environment in which, by definition, no one can arrogate to himself the right to exercise monopolistic, systematic coercion. In short, in an anarchocapitalist system, any entrepreneurial project can be tried if it attracts enough voluntary support, and therefore many possible creative solutions can be devised in a dynamic and constantly changing environment of voluntary cooperation.
11-28-2009 , 04:11 PM
By the way, odds that it was A COMPLETE COINCIDENCE REALLY FOR REAL GUISE that Dubai asks for a debt suspension on Thanksgiving?
11-28-2009 , 04:11 PM
About as coincidental as all bank failures occuring after COB on Fridays.
11-28-2009 , 04:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borodog
About as coincidental as all bank failures occuring after COB on Fridays.
What's the idea here? If markets were open everyone would get all emotional and and it would feed on itself? Or just that the connected can act on the info first?
11-28-2009 , 05:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borodog
It's the strangest feeling. I feel like what is happening to gold is one of the most important things in the world right now . . . and almost nobody knows or cares. The politics forum is full of people arguing about bull**** topics like global warming, health care "reform" and the argument from morality. Angels on the head of a pin imo compared to the gold markets coming unglued.
They don't know for sure. I'm a news/political junkie and if I hadn't stumbled upon this well hidden gem of a sub forum I'd have no idea. Also, people don't want to think about the possible end of their way of life.
11-28-2009 , 06:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlbertoKnox
What's the idea here? If markets were open everyone would get all emotional and and it would feed on itself? Or just that the connected can act on the info first?
They just want to get it into the news cycle and "pre-digested" and spun for two days before markets open.
11-28-2009 , 06:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borodog
They just want to get it into the news cycle and "pre-digested" and spun for two days before markets open.
What's so bad about that? The markets have been volatile and weak and news like this could cause irrational selling and panic. Any rational reason to sell or short the market will be just as rational in two days when the market opens again. No reason to cause a panic when there is no need too.
11-28-2009 , 06:46 PM
Did I say there was anything wrong with it? I just said it was not a coincidence.
11-28-2009 , 07:27 PM
Fox News just got finished telling me to Buy American! and now they're fixin' to tell me how buying gold is a BUSTO.

So much fail.
11-28-2009 , 07:42 PM
As expected: Do NOT "speculate" on gold; "speculating" on gold is for "professional investors only", and the tard in the bow tie says not only that you should definitely NOT buy, if you own you should be selling.
11-28-2009 , 07:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borodog
Fox News just got finished telling me to Buy American! and now they're fixin' to tell me how buying gold is a BUSTO.

So much fail.
So you shouldn't buy American gold? Why do they hate America?
11-28-2009 , 11:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borodog
Did I say there was anything wrong with it? I just said it was not a coincidence.
My bad then, the way you said that, I figured you were somehow against it.
11-28-2009 , 11:19 PM
Over thanksgiving dinner, my family decided to talk about the economy and they were all complaining about how we keep outsourcing jobs and that we need to do something in order to create "balance." I kept trying to explain to them that protectionism hurts and that trying to create a "balance" by artificially interfering in the market is exactly what got us in the job loss situation we are currently in. Pretty frustrating.
11-28-2009 , 11:41 PM
heh, I feel for you 13th. I made a remark about how FDR was the worst president ever. I don't think I convinced anyone that he didn't end the Great Depression.
11-29-2009 , 12:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bremen
heh, I feel for you 13th. I made a remark about how FDR was the worst president ever. I don't think I convinced anyone that he didn't end the Great Depression.
hehe


I think you're doing it wrong imo.
11-29-2009 , 01:54 AM
The Bloomberg reporter that predicted the subprime debacle and is currently suing the Federal Reserve has died unexpectedly at the age of 52:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=afp8OC.OvRnI
11-29-2009 , 09:24 AM
What a surprise, "heart related illness".
11-29-2009 , 10:14 AM
Wifey just saw him a couple of weeks ago in the office.
11-29-2009 , 11:13 AM
Quote:
“Who sues the Fed? One reporter on the planet,” said Emma Moody, a Wall Street Journal editor who worked with Pittman at Bloomberg.
Damn, down to zero reporters who sue the fed. Ben Bernanke is a lucky guy!
11-29-2009 , 12:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bremen
heh, I feel for you 13th. I made a remark about how FDR was the worst president ever. I don't think I convinced anyone that he didn't end the Great Depression.
But what about articles like Slate's "How FDR saved capitalism in eight days"?

How could they call it that if he didn't? As it explains, he explained banking to everybody, then told everyone he would make the banks were safe, and low and behold, they became safe! Like Magic:

Quote:
Roosevelt laid out his plan to right the system, with special attention to the concerns of the average depositor—a person he literally imagined, recalling in his mind the builders, farmers, and clerks he knew from New York's Dutchess County. He even anticipated their questions. ("Another question you will ask is this: Why are all the banks not to be reopened at the same time?") He exuded none of the condescension that has long been Bush's trademark—that unearned confidence of the small-time operator who doesn't realize that in the big leagues, not everyone will be charmed by his patter. Instead of salesmanship, Roosevelt confidently insisted that his plan deserved the public's trust. "Please let me make it clear to you that if your bank does not open the first day you are by no means justified in believing that it will not open," he patiently explained. "A bank that opens on one of the subsequent days is in exactly the same status as the bank that opens tomorrow. I know that many people are worrying about State banks that are not members of the Federal Reserve System. There is no occasion for that worry."

The reviews were gushing. "Our president took such a dry subject as banking," said Will Rogers, "and made everybody understand it, even the bankers." Years later Raymond Moley, a member of Roosevelt's "Brains Trust," concluded: "Capitalism was saved in eight days." And when the first of the banks reopened, people indeed kept their deposits in—and began putting their mattress money back in as well. The bank holiday was over, but Roosevelt's honeymoon was just beginning. By April 12, 13,000 once-destitute banks were operating again.

Of course, FDR did more than talk. Without policies to back up his rhetoric, the New Deal would have failed. (Despite a current of thought that insists that Roosevelt's economic policies did nothing, they in fact "helped the economy" and improved the lives of millions of needy Americans in both the short and long terms.) Similarly, without prudent management of the banking crisis, he might never have turned his 100 days into a whirlwind of legislation—legislation that included the creation of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, which itself further helped persuade citizens not to hide their money anymore.
So we actually get a cite to another article (http://www.slate.com/id/2169744/pagenum/all/) to prove how FDR's policies "helped the economy." This other article is called "FDR's Latest Critics - Was the New Deal un-American?" and is really just a criticism of Amity Shlaes criticism's of FDR. But anyway.

Apparently the new deal was popular and thus a success

Quote:
Despite its deep American roots and its popularity across class, regional, religious, racial, ethnic, and to a degree even party lines, the New Deal never lacked critics. They came mainly from the corporate boardrooms and the white-shoe law firms. They could not deny the New Deal's popularity, so they challenged its Americanness. They claimed, as the attorney Frederick Wood did in 1935, that Roosevelt aimed at "some form of national socialism—whether Soviet, Fascist, or Nazi." Some duPont executives, annoyed that the New Deal was raising wage rates for black workers, created the American Liberty League for "encouraging people to get rich" instead of supporting Roosevelt. They made the 1936 election a referendum on the New Deal.

Roosevelt won this referendum by a record majority. He appealed most to the poor—pollsters found Roosevelt garnered 76 percent of the lower-income vote. But he won more than 60 percent of middle-income votes, and even 42 percent of upper-income votes.
And maybe it didn't end the Depression (LDO, everybody knows the war did that), but it didn't prevent recovery (cause we had one, see!) and unemployment was better.

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As for being bad for business: The greatest knock on the New Deal is it did not end the Great Depression. The war did that. Open the authoritative reference work Historical Statistics of the United States and you will find that the unemployment rate did not return to its 1929 level until 1943.

But if the New Deal did not end the Great Depression, was it doing some good? Historical Statistics of the United States says yes:
Except in the 1937-38 recession, unemployment fell every year of the New Deal. Also, real GDP grew at an annual rate of around 9 percent during Roosevelt's first term and, after the 1937-38 dip, around 11 percent.

So on the numbers, the U.S. economy improved briskly during the New Deal. Things that are moving quickly and in the right direction, but still haven't reached their destination after a while, are things that have a long way to go—which is true of the U.S. economy recovering from 1932. Historians disagree on which part of the New Deal most encouraged economic growth, but at the least the New Deal did not prevent this recovery.
Its also repeated that the most important thing is preventing unemployment, cause that means stimulation (don't you just love JMK's "risque" sexual-economic metaphor - who doesn't want stimulation?):

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Now, you may say, wait: Those people really shouldn't count as employed—we're not interested in government make-work, we're interested in the real economy. Fair enough—and if you look again at Historical Statistics of the United States, you'll see another measure of unemployment—private, nonfarm unemployment—measuring the real, industrial economy. And on that measure, unemployment again runs markedly lower under Roosevelt than under Hoover. John Maynard Keynes might have explained that the New Deal wasn't just offering make-work, it was stimulating the economy—and Shlaes in fact at one point says the same: "[I]t functioned as Keynes ... hoped it would." Yet of all the possible ways to measure unemployment, Shlaes chooses the only way that hides the effect of New Deal relief programs and makes it look as though the economy performed as poorly under Roosevelt as under Hoover.
And just to make sure you understand why the Holy Grail of depression analysis is unemployment, we get a nod to the master, as no explanation of any government economic success would be complete without a reference to Karl Marx and his greatest contribution to economic misunderstanding everywhere - OMG class warfare. Or as some like to call it, droll populism - its the little guy laborer v big business:

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But for Shlaes, as for the Liberty Leaguers, government isn't big unless it restricts big business; then big government is bad. She makes this point plainly: "[T]o force business to go on spending when it did not want to was to hurt business," she says of wage-raising policies. Yes, and to force labor to go on starving when it did not want to was to hurt labor. Sometimes government, as Coolidge said, must govern, which means balancing one interest against another. Roosevelt made this homely insight the hallmark of his administration. And it's why the American people kept him in office and why so much of his New Deal remains.




11-29-2009 , 02:46 PM
The minimum wage law and labor unions exist because of Marxist exploitation theory which assumes 1. The free laborer is exploited by the capitalist the same way a slave is exploited by a slave master 2. Free laborers are not capitalistic owners of their earnings above the means of subsistence.
11-29-2009 , 02:50 PM

http://mises.org/books/TRTS/

Thanks Karl!
11-29-2009 , 11:38 PM


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6,133 retired California government workers receive pensions in excess of $100,000 from CalPERS.
They're all listed here

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3,090 retired teachers and administrators receive pensions in excess of $100,000 from CalSTRS.
They're all listed here

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http://www.pensiontsunami.com/
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That approaching wave of pension debt is a lot bigger than it looks. The purpose of this site is to provide an overview of the multiple pension crises that are about to drown America's taxpayers. Our primary focus is on California, but we also track other states, corporate pensions, social security and international trends.
11-30-2009 , 12:00 AM
I know all of their salary information is public and available on a lot of government websites. College professor's salaries (from my state at least) are also online. Some of my teachers made as much as $120,000 per year at a local college only having to work 9 months!

It is ridiculous that teachers and government employees form unions to ratchet up wages rates and sink our wallets deeper and deeper over time.

That second point about Marxist exploitation theory comes from this video that I had to listen to like 20 times before I got it.
11-30-2009 , 12:07 AM
This dude at about 36:00 says that there should be a "public discrediting of Marxist exploitation theory" to get rid of labor unions and the minimum wage law so that wages can fall and adjust. It says it will be difficult though since there is a "Marxist occupation of our nation's capital."

      
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