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Old 06-03-2012, 04:52 PM   #26
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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Originally Posted by CupidStunt0 View Post
I don't believe economics is as complex as the wealthy, the media, the politicians and world leaders would like us to believe.
Yet apparently it is much too complex for you to grasp even the basics.
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Old 06-03-2012, 07:30 PM   #27
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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Originally Posted by awval999 View Post
Even simpler:
Granny knits you a green sweater.
This:

Into this:


Wealth has been created.
... destroyed IMO.

Real wealth creation looks like this.

Spoiler:
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Old 06-03-2012, 10:17 PM   #28
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

First off grizy wins thread.

Second OP has a horrible fallacy at the core of his argument: the idea that the economy is a zero sum game. It's not. It's just not. Basically imagine the entire economy is a pie. In a perfect world where efficiency was absolutely maximized he would be right and it WOULD be zero sum. In real life the pie can get bigger. This means that two parties can make a deal that expands the pie and both win.

Thankfully we don't live in a perfect world, and it's possible for two parties to cut a deal where both sides win. I get that the OP learned everything he knows about economics from playing monopoly, but the question of whether or not the economy is zero sum was answered by the ****ing physiocrats back in the 1700's.

Thanks for playing though!
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Old 06-03-2012, 10:20 PM   #29
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

Also I can't help but notice that every single econ topic in this subforum is dominated by the discussion of currency. This tells me that very few of you know anything about how currency actually works. You just throw around terms like 'fiat money' and 'gold' and 'taxes' and other words that you don't actually understand at any theoretical level.

Not trying to be a dick... But you don't have to learn this stuff on forums. There are actual books you could read. Just saying.
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Old 06-05-2012, 01:14 AM   #30
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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Originally Posted by CupidStunt0 View Post
That's factually incorrect, albeit a very common misconception. There really is a finite amount of money in the world and no wealth is created through exchange. like I said in my previous post, people like Steve Jobs do not create wealth, they just create products that people are prepared to exchange their own wealth for. Steve Jobs never created a dime of wealth in his life, only the banks and governments can do that by essentially creating money out of nothing through methods such as fractional reserve banking and "quantatitive easing".
You are making the common misconception of conflating money with wealth. The two are not the same. Ease up on what you think is "factually incorrect."

Money isn't wealth, its a conduit between one's production and another's production, which when exchanged voluntarily create an ex ante psychic profit for both parties (iow both parties expect to benefit, hence why the exchange is made). The profit is the gain made (by both parties) in the transaction whereby some less desired state of affairs was exchanged for a more desired state of affairs. This profit, or "value gained" is subjective and unmeasurable, yet it is forward progress towards one's satisfaction of his or her desire. Wealth on the other hand is the capacity to achieve that satisfaction (achieved by gaining something desired or removing something undesired). The ability to increase the capacity to achieve satisfaction or remove dissatisfaction, and thus become wealthier, is infinite.

Now just let that soak in.
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Old 06-05-2012, 01:20 AM   #31
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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I'm not advocating any kind of mercantilism
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I'm just saying that those that take money out of an economy should put a fair share of the profits back into it.
This, in a nutshell, is the mercantilist doctrine -- that some arbitrary amount of money ("fair share" or whatever) must remain in some arbitrarily defined economy in order for that economy to serve its arbitrarily defined purpose. Again, it was logically shattered centuries ago.
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Old 06-05-2012, 01:28 AM   #32
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

Politicians would rather shoot their fnnnnnnn toe off then say no to a corporation!

In 1980 there was less then 400 lobbyist in DC, by 2009 there were over 35,000

In 1980 50 corporations owned main stream press, now its only six.

In 1980 CEOs got paid at a ratio of 42 to 1 what their workers got.......by 2010 they paid themselves 325 to 1 more then their workers.
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Old 06-07-2012, 04:06 PM   #33
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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Originally Posted by razrback View Post
You are making the common misconception of conflating money with wealth. The two are not the same. Ease up on what you think is "factually incorrect."

Money isn't wealth, its a conduit between one's production and another's production, which when exchanged voluntarily create an ex ante psychic profit for both parties (iow both parties expect to benefit, hence why the exchange is made). The profit is the gain made (by both parties) in the transaction whereby some less desired state of affairs was exchanged for a more desired state of affairs. This profit, or "value gained" is subjective and unmeasurable, yet it is forward progress towards one's satisfaction of his or her desire. Wealth on the other hand is the capacity to achieve that satisfaction (achieved by gaining something desired or removing something undesired). The ability to increase the capacity to achieve satisfaction or remove dissatisfaction, and thus become wealthier, is infinite.

Now just let that soak in.
GG

In regards to 'avoiding' taxes, tax avoidance is completely legal and one would think that a rational individual (firm) would utilize any method of avoidance in order to secure a larger portion of their money.

Certainly, if these companies you speak of are evading taxes then that is an entirely different scenario, and I think someone earlier mentioned something along the lines of that it is the government that more or less allows the corporations to avoid taxes through incredibly complicated tax codes etc.

Not to start any gov vs business argument...
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:28 AM   #34
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

Financial terrorism exposed in London this week talked about how the world is going to hit a depression that made the last one look like soft

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gQo3JwbaV8
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Old 06-09-2012, 03:13 AM   #35
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

OP, are you this guy?

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Old 06-09-2012, 10:06 AM   #36
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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Originally Posted by Janice7776 View Post
Politicians would rather shoot their fnnnnnnn toe off then say no to a corporation!

In 1980 there was less then 400 lobbyist in DC, by 2009 there were over 35,000.

In 1980 50 corporations owned main stream press, now its only six.

In 1980 CEOs got paid at a ratio of 42 to 1 what their workers got.......by 2010 they paid themselves 325 to 1 more then their workers.
1) Corporatism is not the same thing as free market capitalism. Most free marketeers despise the mingling of corporations and government.

2) Large companies tend to operate at lower costs per unit than small companies. Lower costs typically result in lower prices. Lower prices tend to result in small companies getting into trouble. Small companies getting into trouble tend to be purchased by large companies. It's no problem until the government says that only Companies X, Y, and Z can operate in a particular industry.

3) CEOs do not pay themselves. Their salaries are determined by the board and presented to stockholders. There have been several recent high-profile instances of stockholders refusing the pay schemes indicated by the board (Citigroup, for example).

If you are lumping in CEOs (no idea where you got your figures, by the way) who also are owners of the company, then it's their right to take whatever share of the profits they want. Who are you to say what workers "deserve?"
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:35 AM   #37
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

holy communists!!
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Old 06-09-2012, 11:40 AM   #38
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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OP, are you this guy?

I guarantee that if this guy had the opportunity to switch places with any of the 1%'ers, he would do it in a heart beat and would never look back. I think there is a lot of jealousy involved in this whole 99% vs 1% argument. Some points are valid but you can't just ignore capitalism and rewarding successful people.

I feel that there is some gray area between the ideal level of taxes and wealth re-distribution but to take too much from the rich and give to the poor, will kill our nation's future (speaking US here.)
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:31 PM   #39
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

this is not capitalism!

post a video of a hobo, did you expect him to know a damn thing...when the rest of society knows nothing?
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:35 PM   #40
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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Originally Posted by mrducks View Post
I guarantee that if this guy had the opportunity to switch places with any of the 1%'ers, he would do it in a heart beat and would never look back. I think there is a lot of jealousy involved in this whole 99% vs 1% argument. Some points are valid but you can't just ignore capitalism and rewarding successful people.

I feel that there is some gray area between the ideal level of taxes and wealth re-distribution but to take too much from the rich and give to the poor, will kill our nation's future (speaking US here.)
The fact that this guy is an hypocrite wouldn't be that important if what he is saying wasn't so stupid, he clearly doesn't understand the first thing about economics.
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Old 06-09-2012, 02:38 PM   #41
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

For example, the are lots of people advocating for the right thing wich is a free market based economy, but they would be very willing to recieve money from the government in exchange for their products at a price that the market wouldn't convalidate, they are hypocrites too, but they are speaking some truth. This guy is just brainless.
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Old 06-17-2012, 07:54 PM   #42
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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Originally Posted by CupidStunt0 View Post
A lot of it does get spent with these companies and this isn't a problem, the problem is that these large corporations avoid paying taxes back into the economy, instead the excess profits are siphoned off by the shareholders.



The economy often doesn't get anything in return other than a pie that some guy eats, if the companies were taxed adequately then the economy would get a slice of (the monetary value of) that pie back whether it was eaten or not.



Because everybody else gets poorer, so while the rich manage to maintain most of their wealth by not investing and hoarding cash which sucks the money out of the system, the poor can't earn a living and so although they don't necessarily have more money they do have a much bigger share of the wealth because they still have their cash while much of the population doesn't even have a job.



I'm not suggesting to give all the money to the poor, I'm suggesting that there's a healthy balance and that this balance has been thrown out because the rich (generally the investors) have taken too much and now the poor (generally the consumers) have too little. An extreme example of this happening recently was in Zimbabwe under Mugabe.




I don't think you fully understand how wealth creation works. Steve Jobs didn't create any wealth, he simply created products that people were prepared to exchange their wealth for. The banks create the wealth through fractional reserve banking (look it up) or quantitative easing (In essence, printing money).

I don't know how much tax Steve Jobs paid but if he paid as much as other people who earn that much did then he probably paid very little as a percentage of his total income, if he paid less than say ~40% of his total earnings in tax then yes, I think he should have contributed more. I don't think it's fair that those who take the most out of economies contribute less as a percentage of their income in taxes, do you?



The wealthy want us to believe that they should pay more in taxes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CupidStunt0 View Post
That's factually incorrect, albeit a very common misconception. There really is a finite amount of money in the world and no wealth is created through exchange. like I said in my previous post, people like Steve Jobs do not create wealth, they just create products that people are prepared to exchange their own wealth for. Steve Jobs never created a dime of wealth in his life, only the banks and governments can do that by essentially creating money out of nothing through methods such as fractional reserve banking and "quantatitive easing".




I think you've misunderstood my argument, I'm not advocating any kind of mercantilism, I'm just saying that those that take money out of an economy should put a fair share of the profits back into it. This is how it is supposed to work anyway, the only reason it doesn't work like this is because the rich have lobbied the governments into giving them all kinds of tax breaks which mean that they often end up paying nothing back in taxes. Everyone else has to pay their share of taxes except for the ultra rich who need the money the least. This is not how a healthy economy that is supposed to benefit the majority should work.
I wasn't really indoctrinated into any of it, I read the mainstream media from a young age and found that I disagreed with a lot of it so I looked into various different sources and came to a conclusion that made sense to me.



So if they don't want to pay more, why would they want everybody to believe that they should pay more?
Yep, I'm very familiar with Warren Buffet and the proposed Buffet rule that the rich and those in power have been avoiding like the plague.
Unfortunately Warren Buffet is the exception to the rule, there are other rich people that side with him on the matter but they are a small minority. The Buffet rule was named after him precisely because it's so rare for rich people to come out and admit "Actually yeah, we are paying far too little in taxes" The majority of wealthy people are happy with the tax breaks that they receive because it means that they can have more money and generally, the rich man's greed will overpower the rich man's conscience.
Your argument that the rich generally want us to believe that they should pay more taxes doesn't really make any sense when you think about it rationally.



Am I the only one that realized this is a level? No one who actually believed what the OP is claiming would phrase things in this way
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Old 06-17-2012, 09:46 PM   #43
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

They could if their idea of what wealth is comes from watching cartoons of Uncle Scrooge swimming in his pool of gold coins.
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Old 06-20-2012, 03:16 AM   #44
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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Originally Posted by BoredSocial View Post
Second OP has a horrible fallacy at the core of his argument: the idea that the economy is a zero sum game. !
He also suffers from a bizarre notion that taxation is putting money into the economy, when in fact it drains it from the economy.
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Old 06-20-2012, 03:17 AM   #45
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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Am I the only one that realized this is a level? No one who actually believed what the OP is claiming would phrase things in this way

Im afraid you give him way too much credit.
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Old 06-22-2012, 06:12 PM   #46
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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It's not that easy. Of course there are plenty of horribly run businesses that abuse this lobby-capitalism to the fullest. Both deserve our disgust.

Silly overaggregation but it's a pretty odd thing:
Somehow "the left" tends to focus on the evil business side (while praising all of government) and "the right" tends to focus on the evil government (while praising all businesses)
Imo, businesses are just responding to what the government has turned into. Individuals and therefore businesses, will always be greedy. It is human nature. We can not change that.

However, we can change the way the government is organized. If the government is set up in such a way that protects individuals' freedom and liberty (eg. strictly following the constitution), then rent seeking businesses will not be able to lobby for things that provide them with above normal profits while screwing everyone else.
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Old 06-22-2012, 06:20 PM   #47
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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Originally Posted by mrducks View Post
I guarantee that if this guy had the opportunity to switch places with any of the 1%'ers, he would do it in a heart beat and would never look back. I think there is a lot of jealousy involved in this whole 99% vs 1% argument. Some points are valid but you can't just ignore capitalism and rewarding successful people.

I feel that there is some gray area between the ideal level of taxes and wealth re-distribution but to take too much from the rich and give to the poor, will kill our nation's future (speaking US here.)
I recommend The Anti-Capitalist Mindset if you want to learn more about why the 99% people hate capitalism.

FWI, I think that a large % of capitalist haters seem to believe that the vast majority of the 1% got their wealth by stealing or scamming others somehow. Not sure where that comes from but that's just an insight from my own experience.

Wealth re-distribution by the government is always a terrible thing. It steps on individual liberties and reduces incentives to create wealth. However, the government goes about this will include a massive amount of waste. Think about how much wealth gets redistributed voluntarily anyway. Billions are given to charitable causes every year.
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:07 AM   #48
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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With all the tax breaks that the rich have around the world at the moment, that isn't happening and it's causing the collapse of the worlds economies that we are witnessing.
Who is "we"? I'm not witnessing a collapse of the world's economies; I'm witnessing the cyclical nature of economies in action.
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:19 AM   #49
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

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Who is "we"? I'm not witnessing a collapse of the world's economies; I'm witnessing the cyclical nature of economies in action.
What's happening now has even more historical significance than even most people realize.

Europe is slowly coming to terms with its fiscal and (eventually) political unification.

Perhaps even more significantly, the crisis is truly bringing home, for many, the fact that the world economies are more integrated than ever. It's unprecedented how all the major central banks (BoJapan, Federal Reserve, Russia and everyone else really) are already deeply involved in what's, so far, a supposedly European crisis.

Another thing that one of my politics professors (an authority on war in the field) pointed out to me was how remarkable the thought of use of force isn't even crossing anyone's minds. 70 years ago, the newspaper headlines would be quite different.
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:22 AM   #50
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Re: The greed of the rich is destroying the worlds economies

People shouldn't automatically dismiss the notion that redistributing money from the rich could be a good thing overall. In his new book, Stiglitz makes a case for redistribution, arguing that it would actually be better for growth and stability.
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