Villian 2: Calls everything, not folding pairs
Villian 1: Good reg TAG, have seen him bluffing. knows that hero is tight and disciplined.

stakes. 5/10
Action, UTG straddle on Villian 1 (20), UTG+1 Double Straddle Hero ( 40), UTG+2 Triple Straddle Villian 2(80)

Folds Around to Villian 1( starting stack 3k) who flats the 80.
Hero ( starting stack 2k) looks down at QQ in the double Straddle. knowing that Villian 2( starting stack 4k) calls almost every PF raise, and looking to isolate Villian 2. Hero Raises to 440 (wanted to raised to 340 but misclicks).
Villian 2 calls, Villian 1 calls.

Flop J 10 5 rainbow ( pot 1320)

Villian 1 checks,
Hero decided to size down his cbet to 600. ( thinking of shoving all brick turns)
Villian 2 folds, back to villian 1 who thinks for abt 15 secs and calls.

Turn offsuit J (2520)

Villian 1 open jams.
hero has 1.4k remaining.

what would you guys do

Nh I’d call now

I think your starting stacks are a bit off.

Ap I think he has enough straight draws, random 10s to make this a call.

Fold if he's passive, call if not

Pretty standard call barring super reads. A couple of minor things: clearly state number of players, label opponents by blind ($20 is obv no longer UTG), solid TAG who doesn’t bluff isn’t a solid TAG at all, $480 open sizing is fine in this spot, etc, etc.

^

This.

Snap it (cause you have to) with an indifferent feeling in the gut.

how many ppl play Jx this way on a rainbow board? seems like V has so few value hands here

What does good TAG really have here? I'd be a lot happier with AA. Blocking all his likely straight draws, I don't mind a fold.

i dont hate shoving the flop (1600 into 1320) but later u said we have 1.4K remaining after a 600 flop bet so im a little lost.

if the starting stack is 2K i shove the flop.

if the starting stack is 2.4K, we have 2K and a pot of 1320 on the flop (so less than 2spr) im not sure how were ever going to fold QQ on the turn under these circumstances, especially in a blind war.

Yea, after i thought abt it, what u guys say here makes sense. calling makes the most sense i suppose. sorry abt the wrong starting stakes numbers tho.

How do you have 2k to start, but then also 2k on the flop?

I think it kind of sucks that you block his main draws, but ultimately your hand is a bit too strong to fold. That said, I could see it being a fold under right conditions. As said, we block main draws, and villain ships most draws on flops (or should), so it's really not that easy to come up with bluffs the villain can have. His line is really weird for a draw, and very weird for Tx.

Assuming 2.4k start, I'd still size down a bit on the flop to make room for raises.

Jam the flop. You have no bet/folding range on this board anyway. You also need to balance your mandatory semibluff jams with AK, AQ, KQ (48 combos in your range) with actual value.

Wait, why do we only have TT+ and AQ KQ AK in our range? Why would we have no bet/folding range on this board?

???

Huh? Not sure why you limited the range that much. You can't bet/fold any hand that has decent equity. For example, you have to call a jam with KT if you happen to bet it on this flop. Can't bet/fold Jx either, obviously.

So I would flip the question on you here. What hands do you have in your preflop range that bets at two opponents and folds to a jam getting 3:1? Imo, betting 88 or A9s in this spot is a big mistake.

I think ripping 2k into 1300 is giving up too much money vs the whale.

um you said this:

You bluff some frequency of course. Anyway, you can probably bet/fold small some semibluffs like AQ AK and it's okay.

Also why would you bet KT to begin with, and why would you not fold if you get jammed on?

You realise you don't have to bet half pot right, you can just make it 300. If they are going to jam 2k over 300, good for them, they can get stacked by the stronger portion of your range.

um.... the question referred to your assumption somebody was talking about a range of only TT+, KQ, AK, AQ in your previous post. But okay.

You would not fold KT (if you HAPPENED to bet it, as I wrote in my first post) because you are getting the correct price to call.

Fourth pot/fold strategy torches equity. Bet/folding AK/AQ with this spr is a leak.

Here, to avoid dragging out a pointless argument:

If your opponent's raising-all-in range contains zero semibluffs and only TT, 55, Jx (I did all J8 or better, although adding worse Jacks actually improves our equity), then AQ has 30% equity, enough to call if we bet 600, but just shy if we bet 300. Now add in KQs and Q9s, and now we have 33%, enough to make it a call with either bet size. Add in offsuit combinations of those semibluffs, and now we're at 41% equity, making it a massive mistake to fold. In reality, I have seen fishy opps shove 88 here because they "put you on AK," and if they see fourth pot, they might just go for it with K9 gutshot, 89os, or some other random spew. There is no possible mathematical justification for bet/folding AK or AQ.

This fourth pot play is especially bad with AK/AQ, because you will get called often by the fish who you are out of position against and then have to make really difficult decisions ott. Like what happens when the turn comes 7 and you have just under a psb behind? What happens if the board pairs? What happens if you make your Ace - can you get paid by J8, J9, KT?

Jamming flop is clearly very +EV with AK/AQ. Maybe maybe if you are a master live fish reader, you can figure out a way to make more money betting small and navigating the tricky turn scenarios, but I'd rather just keep it simple, play in a way I know is profitable, and not open myself to the possibility of failing to realize my equity.

Firstly I don't advocate betting 600, secondly, yeah AQ and AK has way too much equity, and generally planning to bet/fold it is unwise, and not only that, if we do have a small sizing, we want to split our range, AK and AQ goes into our jam anyway, so I admit I was focusing on semantics needlessly. That said, I do think if we were to pick a small sizing there are some scenarios we can fold them on; I trust live reads to some extent.

Regardless of AQ AK, I think we can still have small % of small bets with AA+ and some air, and bet/fold the air portion. A5 would go okay into that range, some other Axs with bdfd also would fit very nicely into a 1/4 bet jam (some) turn range.

I don't think simplifying the strategy into a jam or check is bad by any means, but I think having a small bet range is possibly higher EV, especially if your read is that villain will peel small bets.

I agree that some people will just decide you have AK and rip it in, and that would kind of suck for some of our bluffs, or make any plan that involves bet/folding AQ AK really bad, but there are also plenty of players who just go "ummm I dunno, it's so cheap I guess I'll call and see what happens first", and I think that a) the latter group is a greater majority and b) it's usually fairly easy to tell which group a player belongs to, so it's fine to base your strategy around said reads. There are player types where they play straightforward enough that just bet/folding tiny with AQ is fine since your overcard outs will be very tainted (if your make their range have very few or no draws, and mostly stuff like AJ KJ QJ and some sets).

fwiw I input 55 TT JJ JQ+, and we have 26.8%. It's obviously all kind of close, but it's not exactly true that we always have odds to call off. We need 32% to call off if we bet 300 into 1320, so sure, if they jam KQ all the time we have to call off (37%), but, again, tons of players would not actually do that.

Oh also, there's some EV difference between just jamming AQ on the flop and betting small on the flop and then jamming a brick. It's kind of debatable if it increases or decreases your FE vs a bad jack or AT, but it's not completely the same thing. vs some opponents you will gain more FE betting twice than by just jamming flop, on account of "if they had a good hand why would he just jam" kind of thought process. Depends on villain of course, but I feel that further makes it possible to vary strategies here.

Shove flop is grossly suboptimal.