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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 05-16-2018, 11:36 PM   #1
BigStackPoker
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Thoughts on 4-bet Preflop Suited A High Wheels OOP

I have been reading some articles and watching some podcasts in recent months and trying to construct my 4-bet ranges both for value and bluffs. I regularly play 2/5 NL (1k cap buy in) and 5/10 NL (2.5k cap buy in) it's not uncommon for these games to run pretty deep stacked (300-500BB + effective). When the game is good and playing deepstacked I know mixing in 4-bets will clearly help to protect my preflop opening range especially when opening OOP because my opponents will be aware that I am willing to mix in preflop 4-bets as part of my range balancing strategy.

In this particular thread I am not looking for advice on constructing preflop 4-bet ranges for Value, although it will depend on opponent, stack sizes, history, and game flow amongst other factors I already have my preflop 4-bet value ranges constructed with adjustments made when necessary due to the ladder factors I just mentioned.

What I am looking for advice/opinions on: Much of what I have been reading/watching mentions that hypothetically when playing in a deep NL game suited A high wheels are amongst the best 4-betting hands preflop because we block Aces and from a raw equity standpoint we are about 35% against the TOP of our opponents 4-bet calling range due to our ability to make straights, flushes, a pair of Aces etc. Now comes the tricky spot I am curious on your thoughts about: if we open say As 3s in the HJ for 5x ($25) and say the CO 3-bets to ($95-$110) fold to us in HJ and we 4-bet to ($260-$275) CO Flats. When the flop comes Ax 7x 9x we find ourselves OOP in a super tricky spot with a bloated pot. Yes we block Aces, yes we flopped top pair but in reality I'm not in love with this spot when my opponent flats my 4-bet pre... what percentage of the time do we think we are ahead in this particular spot against opponents 4-bet calling range? Do we check/call a jam for say 70-100 bigs? Do we lead for 1/3 pot and get away from it if opponent ships? Thoughts?
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:23 AM   #2
apricotjello
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Re: Thoughts on 4-bet Preflop Suited A High Wheels OOP

as my standard play i use the wheel aces as x/c on ace high boards to protect my x/c range. they’re very playable on lots of run outs
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Old 05-17-2018, 03:39 AM   #3
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Re: Thoughts on 4-bet Preflop Suited A High Wheels OOP

5x in an unopened pot is overkill from lp 4x is fine at 2/5 to 20
Anyway your 4b bluff strat should be mixing hands w good blockers and dec equity a5s is a more popular choice for bluffing vs ep opens but is fine at a low frequency other places
Aj at a lowish frequency is a nice 4b bluff hand as well as kq/kjo be careful w frequencies and not overbluff
Post flop you can rly do whatever you want to balance as long as u don’t fold post when u flop tp
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Old 05-17-2018, 12:09 PM   #4
AllTheCheese
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Re: Thoughts on 4-bet Preflop Suited A High Wheels OOP

4b sizing seems small for OOP, whereas Villain's 3b sizing seems large for IP. Think Villain has to call fairly wide at this price of 160 to win 370.
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Old 05-17-2018, 01:27 PM   #5
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Re: Thoughts on 4-bet Preflop Suited A High Wheels OOP

Small 4b sizing is std you have so much strong stuff and it’s v easy to comfortably get stacks in with aa/kk in like almost every board
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Old 05-17-2018, 04:54 PM   #6
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Re: Thoughts on 4-bet Preflop Suited A High Wheels OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllTheCheese View Post
4b sizing seems small for OOP, whereas Villain's 3b sizing seems large for IP. Think Villain has to call fairly wide at this price of 160 to win 370.
This was just a hypothetical situation but if playing with 400+ BBs effective opting to 4-bet at this sizing provides me with the opportunity to fold to a 5-bet jam, win the pot with my 4-bet preflop if I'm being 3-bet light, or lastly see a flop if Villian flats my 4-bet with a hand that has blockers and can make nut flushes, straights, and flop top pair. The particular 4-bet sizing I chose for this hypothetical hand would allow me to comfortably fold to a 5-bet shove because of effective stack sizes. Also if Villian just flats my 4-bet his range is somewhat capped so even though I play OOP I can re-eval post flop based on board texture and feel good about x/c majority of A high flops imo.
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Old 05-17-2018, 05:32 PM   #7
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Re: Thoughts on 4-bet Preflop Suited A High Wheels OOP

But yea when ur deep obv 4b bigger
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Old 05-17-2018, 06:01 PM   #8
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Re: Thoughts on 4-bet Preflop Suited A High Wheels OOP

usually on A79 here I go into XC mode, don't hate 1/3 pot bet, especially as mixes though. My thinking is that most AK 5bets in vils shoes here and AQ can't be that confident in most players hands at this stake. basically Axx is going to be the toughest spot that A/wheel gets into in 4bet spots OOP. lots of other spots it easily gets turned into a bluff or semi bluff.
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Old 05-17-2018, 06:04 PM   #9
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Re: Thoughts on 4-bet Preflop Suited A High Wheels OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by lolposting2016 View Post
Small 4b sizing is std you have so much strong stuff and it’s v easy to comfortably get stacks in with aa/kk in like almost every board
+1

2.3x or so is good imo.
maybe Cheese has a point as well about OOP vs IP (def agree that that 4x 3b size is slightly big IP) idk, i wouldn't adjust 4b size too much more than 2.7x OOP normally, I think it just ends up doing the wrong kinds of things.

in terms of positives for 2.3x... good price on bluff and makes it tempting but wrong for vil to call with trash (not by a ton, but still wrong). if the sizing seems wrong then I think it's largely bc we are either mis-constructing our own 4b range, or mis-adjusting to vils 3b range. (kind of the same thing sometimes I guess.)

psa in this hand 4bet to 260, 3bet 95, 165 to call into 520 = 32% equity needed to call.

if we 4b AK,JJ+ and all As/wheel vil has odds on...
{ 22+,A2s+,KTs+,Q8s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,86s+,76s,65s,A5o + }

Vils issue is two fold imo
1) every hand in our range over realizes equity vs this calling range at low SPR
and
2) I don't have the math in front of me, but I feel like every time I've done the math in the past if we aren't 4bing vs 2%3bers (i.e. not constructing dumb ranges) we profit slightly from FE pre anyway

I guess another way of saying what I'm saying about ranges is if vil calls 4b too much we could easily just 4b
AK,JJ+.A5s,A4s
and vil only has odds on

{ 22+,A2s+,KQs,QTs+,76s,ATo+ } and still runs into the same issues with equity realization

Last edited by sungar78; 05-17-2018 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 05-17-2018, 08:37 PM   #10
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Re: Thoughts on 4-bet Preflop Suited A High Wheels OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by sungar78 View Post
usually on A79 here I go into XC mode, don't hate 1/3 pot bet, especially as mixes though. My thinking is that most AK 5bets in vils shoes here and AQ can't be that confident in most players hands at this stake. basically Axx is going to be the toughest spot that A/wheel gets into in 4bet spots OOP. lots of other spots it easily gets turned into a bluff or semi bluff.
Agreed on all points
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Old 05-17-2018, 10:54 PM   #11
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Re: Thoughts on 4-bet Preflop Suited A High Wheels OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by lolposting2016 View Post
5x in an unopened pot is overkill from lp 4x is fine at 2/5 to 20
Anyway your 4b bluff strat should be mixing hands w good blockers and dec equity a5s is a more popular choice for bluffing vs ep opens but is fine at a low frequency other places
Aj at a lowish frequency is a nice 4b bluff hand as well as kq/kjo be careful w frequencies and not overbluff
Post flop you can rly do whatever you want to balance as long as u don’t fold post when u flop tp
5x in an unopened pot is overkill from lp 4x is fine at 2/5 to 20


Statements like this are really terrible for live poker
Tables vary so much from one another that your strategy should also vary a lot on different tables.
3x can be fine on some tables while 5x(or more) is optimal for other tables
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