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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 10-14-2018, 09:38 PM   #26
Ray Zee
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

based on 400 bb stack you do need to consider more than extracting value. and if playing with good players where you are getting this big stack in you arent going to win very many times. that is a fact. he will always have the straight if the board doesnt pair and queens full most times if it does and you are getting it all in. despite what you may have put him on previously in the hand.
and op said villian was a good capable player.
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:30 PM   #27
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

If he had QQ and was copetent I'd think a 3-bet preflop would be mandatory. He could flat for deception, but in the long run he'll be losing money doing so since we'll see free flops with hands that could have been denied equity.
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Old 10-14-2018, 11:53 PM   #28
Ray Zee
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

thinking like that will get you busted at 400 bb deep.

but of course you might be right at shallower stacks.
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Old 10-15-2018, 12:24 AM   #29
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

Otr were value targeting pair+draw hands so I like to bet a bit smaller around 500
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Old 10-15-2018, 12:42 AM   #30
Ray Zee
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

okay back to the river. here you are so vulnerable to a check raise from this good player that you should check it back since you likely must fold.
and his check makes it look like he took a shot on 4th with a big draw say and wont pay you off.
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Old 10-15-2018, 12:48 AM   #31
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

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okay back to the river. here you are so vulnerable to a check raise from this good player that you should check it back since you likely must fold.
and his check makes it look like he took a shot on 4th with a big draw say and wont pay you off.
+1, and really you should be folding preflop. You only have the 6th best hand, and most flops wont contain a 10. You're really almost never going to win against a good player unless you have a strong live read.
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Old 10-15-2018, 07:11 AM   #32
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Diamond Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

Ray, I think folding turn is too nitty. If you are only calling the turn with KJ, a good opponent will call the flop with any two cards and donk you off your hand. By the time you run into a spot where you do hold the nuts you will have lost too many pots for it to be worth all that folding.
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Old 10-15-2018, 08:26 AM   #33
Ray Zee
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

i did say consider folding. that takes in all cases to make your decision. and this is a live play hand i assumed so no opponent will have a good enough read on you to make those plays profitable if you play well..

and that same opponent that you call will also run you off on the river for a huge bet if he thinks you dont have kj. but in reality as the pot gets bigger in very deep stacked games players must tighten way up with those plays.

there are not many deep games around any more and most players dont realize how you must change your plays to make them profitable against a good player.
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Old 10-15-2018, 08:28 AM   #34
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

also to add if the set was the highest possible one out there i would not fold for sure.
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Old 10-15-2018, 09:38 PM   #35
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

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also to add if the set was the highest possible one out there i would not fold for sure.
Lol

Is this 7 card PLO or hold em?
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Old 10-16-2018, 12:35 AM   #36
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

its super deep holdem. a different game than you may be used to playing. reserve your judgement.
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Old 10-16-2018, 02:30 AM   #37
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

Don't you think our opponent can have QT, Q9, T9, 99, and 22 on this river that may call a modest bet? Our opponent can check/raise KJ, but he can't bluff too often if he is balanced since his bluff combos should be less than his KJ combos otherwise calling his large check/raise bluffs will be trivial.

I guess if you put your opponent on a super polarized range on the turn it could make sense to check back the river, but I don't see any reason to assume this just yet.

I'm kind of curious what range you would put both players on at each street in this hand.
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Old 10-16-2018, 09:52 AM   #38
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

Does anyone else think this is actually a great spot to overbet/polarize given flop, turn action?
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Old 10-16-2018, 03:27 PM   #39
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

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its super deep holdem. a different game than you may be used to playing. reserve your judgement.
Ray, I have a little problem with calling this super deep. OP doesn't specify where this game was played, but if for example it was at the Aria/Wynn uncapped game, 400bb stacks are the norm, not the exception. And even if its just a 2k or 2.5k cap buyin game, 4k stacks are not unusual.

And the guys you are playing against in those games are not always going to have the nuts when they get their 4k stack in the middle at least in my experience.

Having said that I don't much like the hero's overbet on the river after villain led the turn, and second set is not looking very strong when V check raises to put you all in or close to it.
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Old 10-16-2018, 05:10 PM   #40
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

Just for the record, I'd be calling the turn with the intention to rep hearts before I thought about folding. If your argument is to maybe fold mid set but call top set because we are pretty deep (we are not super deep), then that should be a consideration in this spot. Generally I do this more in plo, but this spot is one of the better candidates to potentially turn a set into a bluff because of depth.
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Old 10-16-2018, 05:34 PM   #41
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

this hand is fraught with dangers. he could easily have been leading out on 4th with the flush draw and you get into a trap here. of course if you think that then you should have raised him on 4th not just called and let a card slide off then put your stack in jeopardy.

on the river i think its a check as played which is certainly an okay way to play the hand.

most times its going to be a missed draw or a weak hand and a bet would be wasted.
and the times its the straight you get into big trouble. against good players when you dont look like you could have the nuts as here in this hand. it doesnt pay to bet in spots where you can easily be run off unless you feel he will pay you off and isnt likely to raise you back.
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Old 10-16-2018, 06:20 PM   #42
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

No good, capable 25 reg is going to lead this turn and then fold 100% of his non nut hands. This river is a pretty easy value bet, however the sizing does not make sense as we are making a polarizing bet in a spot we never should have a straight. As for vill having a flush draw, I considered it but it really doesn't make a ton of sense since a lot of them will be high equity hands that can raise the flop. I think Ray's advice would be preferable playing 100-150bbs, but playing deeper allows for a wider range of profitable (albeit higher variance) aggressive lines.
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Old 10-17-2018, 05:44 AM   #43
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

Do we have to raise KJ on the turn? I'm thinking we call sometimes, but raise other times. Sometimes you'll get out drawn when you call, but there are a bunch of other times where the river bricks and your opponent bluffs or value bets a worse hand.
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Old 10-17-2018, 10:01 PM   #44
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

Ray sorry man but you have given some aids advice on this thread
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Old 10-17-2018, 10:36 PM   #45
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

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Ray sorry man but you have given some aids advice on this thread
80s aids to be specific
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Old 10-18-2018, 12:14 AM   #46
Ray Zee
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

to each his own thoughts guys. mostly i said consider. and all players must consider all those things. its not set in stone to do them. but in more than a few cases those decisions do come into play. and it isnt 80's advice it still applies.

and in many of my posts i point out things most dont think about or use in their plays. i believe it helps many improve their thinking. some it wont help and some wont let help come to them.

and i learn lots of things from you guys here on the forums.
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Old 10-18-2018, 09:28 AM   #47
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

Once again, I can't imagine why the forums are so bereft of solid strategy these days. LOL at ****ting on Ray Zee period, never mind the fact that he's more on point here than just about everyone else. Please don't stop posting, Ray. This forum desperately needs you. Anyway.....

I think you played it fine until the river. Why did you choose that sizing, esp after the supposed alarm bells ott?

How you play the river here depends a ton on how villain perceives you. Any history? In general, I like a river bet but more along the lines of 1/2-3/4 pot. In fact, I think bet/fold is best in this spot barring any extensive history. He could call with 2 pair or a lower set, but once he raises you're beat almost always and I would fold.

Last edited by RichGangi; 10-18-2018 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 10-18-2018, 01:12 PM   #48
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

Sorry rich I gotta call a spade a spade. If you post bad strat you deserve to get trolled - it’s the internet and made for talking a little ****.
I get rays point about not trying to lose a stack in a dicey spot. But when you have a set and you run it into a straight you or anyone is gonna lose $ - you can lose a stack in nlhe at anytime thats just the game. If you can’t afford to lose a stack and reload than you are playing to high.
set of 10s is a sick hand that makes lots of money/ And clearly deserves a value bet in this spot. Pio will tell you it’s a 100% bet.
In before dude it’s live poker pio doesn’t know xyz blah blah - pio is better at poker than all of us put together so just stop.
I usually just give a little lol in my head every time I see a weak reg table a hand like this ip.
I can get behind a smaller sizing on the River 3/4 pot or something but the ev difference probably won’t knock you socks off and live regs like to pay off overbets because they think omg hed never bet for value yes trying to scare me off. Darned if I’m gonna let this young internet player bluff me I cawl with bottom pair or whatever funny stuff they decided to lead on the turn
Lastly folding this hand would be a pretty big exploit. He could tottaly min raise a worse hand here. You are really supposed to just call this raise every time - but if someone told me they decided to fold this hand for reasons I’d be like yea man I get it I might do the same thing.
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Old 10-18-2018, 01:36 PM   #49
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

It seems to me that you're not even trying to play poker. You're just saying: 'I have X which is the top of my range so I have to call.' Correct me if that's not what you're advocating....

That is bad poker and you will get killed playing any competent player. It will seem like you're getting unlucky, but it's by design that you keep getting stacked.
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Old 10-18-2018, 02:14 PM   #50
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Re: Standard cooler, or can we get away?

so what did villain end up having?
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