No doubt because of the unblocked nature of straights, 3-betting the turn is thinner than it looks. I'm sure there's a frequency that he has 54 where calling is always gonna beat 3-betting. Maybe its 25%, 20%, whatever. I think he has 54 something like 10-15% of the time that he raises the turn like this, and I think there's a reasonable shot that you don't get stuffed for 17k when you 3-bet and he has that hand. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see that hand flat or make a tiny 4bet that you can easily call.

As far as your implied odds, it appears to me like you lose massively when he has 54 regardless of what line you take. Should you not get bailed out by your boat outs, he'll probably bet some massive overbet which you'll either happily call or possibly even raise on the river. Certainly if you knew he had 54 100% of the time you would be able to call for a massive profit, folding every non paired river, but considering you didn't even fold for 5k on a bad river, you were always gonna make a big mistake against that hand, should he have it.

sorry was on forum tilt when i wrote that.

apologize wont happen again.

still think its a must 3-bet

edit: i have played 1000BB deep regularly in a home game years ago, were some guy lost his monthly salary to me every month. he lived by his parents so no biggie. it was 50cents/1dollar though

at higher stakes like 5/10 i never have been deeper than 300BB but i simply think that from a theory perspective a hand that can make top boat and has everything crushed but a straight needs to be 3-bet

he wont always 4-bet when he has the nuts though and often his 4-bet will be pretty small.

and another hand he could have: some overcards that floated the flop and picked up a diamond draw. or a hand like A5

let me try to explain it another way.

think of all the profitable river situations you will face if you 3-bet.

you will get a solid read on him how much he likes his hand if he sees your reraise
a diamond appears that pairs the board. he might c/r you with a flush
the board pairs and he leads
a blank comes and you pot

on bad cards like the 5 of diamonds you can just check back instead of makeing a difficult decision.

i just see so many positive things that can happen to you

edit: im a bit speedy and therfor very talkactive, i know its hard to make the most +ev decision if you run bad. still not many arguments for calling here. the only bad thing is when he decides to go allin and we lose our reraise and miss the chance to stack him. but how often does that happen?

dont even bad players do this often.

Right, I agree (though I do try sometimes)

I was making small fun at the fact that live reads being different things for different people. I put decent stock in live tells, more than most on this forum. And my voice cracking with the nuts is something I've noticed over time (I don't talk at all now obv). I think it's because voice crack = anxiety and I don't have anxiety when I know I just sent money into the fire pit but I DO have anxiety when I have the stones and want to get paid.

Once again, here I go with my simplistic logic to address the 3 bet on the turn issue. First, most people don't have a lot of experience playing 1000 bb deep with rich, smart, rec players. They are not your average fish, and most of them make the money they bring to the game by making someone their sucker. Unlike a 5/T grinder at the Venetian, they are very prone to getting lost in a hand, and instead of giving up and saving the rent money, they often have the cash and balls behind them to fire their way out of crappy situations.

In this case, he could have shipped over it with the nuts or as a bluff, if he can take 45 out of DGAF's range. I know you don't see it much, but I feel like I know the type OP is refering to, and believe me it's in his arsenal, as witnessed by the river sizing. Believe me, he wasn't looking for a call on the end.

In these situations, very deep, it pays to figure out what the smallest potential "mistake" is. IMO, that is definitely just calling, trying to improve, and playing another street in position.

This is very player dependent, but I kind of "get" the villian in this situation.

the reason behind the 3-bet is that i suspect we are ahead >90% of the time and will face a profitable river scenario.

if you say that he is bluffing so often that we simply cant 3-bet without getting shoved on he is propably bluffing so much we could actually 3-bet and call off. but is that really the case? i doubt it, so the danger of getting raised out of the hand is pretty low.

if somebody is so tough you cant 3-bet here 888 you propably shouldnt play him at all.

Will he just call and then pay off with less? I am not sure if that is clear.

i think he will call the 3-bet often and call another huge bet otr. maybe even more action.

i doubt he is donking cards that hurt our hand as he must fear we have the straight

This guy is a shover. Rich middle age nl enthusiasts like him love the huge all in. And he's especially notorious for it. So vs him facing the massive 4bet is a legit concern.

I'm curious why you think he only has 54 10-15%? I think he has that specific hand more often than he doesn't with this line. Is it his sizing?

^^^
Well played

just as a note: even if he makes this insane overshove as a bluf he propably needs diamonds and a straightdraw both together, there are not more than 4 combos he would try this bluff with.

to have 54 more than not after c/r the turn you must be an absurd nutpeddler ^^. doubt this fits to the profile of the NL junckie

k, np

It's not a matter of losing to a straight and beating "everything else" imo. It's not like he showed any aggression pre or on the flop which could lead me to believe there is a substantial amount of "everything else." It's also not like my pf raise narrows my range at all/I can't have huge hands on this board- he thinks I'm a maniac.

It's a matter of losing to a straight and beating 32/maybe 22 imo. And what's the best way to continue in a maximizing/minimizing effort against this range?

IMO

And playing deep against alpha males playing for sport is a lot different than playing deep against someone who lives with his parents and is just a punching bag. And there's more to taking passive (if you call bet/calling passive) lines than pot control this deep. Sometimes you win way more underrepped/it's optimal.

I'm not playing against isildur. I'm playing against someone who thinks his hand is better than mine when that 2 binks, and he almost always had "something" on the flop.

if you really think 54/32 and 22 is his range than 3-betting is of course the wrong play and calling is better.

but someone comeing into your pot with 32o will have a wider c/r range imo, especially the guy you described.

when he wants to tangle with you with such a wide range he needs to c/r a lot of stuff, esle he will be c/c and c/f and thats not his style imo.

Raise

Jesus. What range are you 3betting against? IRL it's not very wide at all 54 is the bulk.

Less than 10%???

if 54 is the bulk than this guy isnt propably that aggro. that would mean you could valuetown him to death pretty easily since he has to play 32o to a raise oop.

see what i mean?

playing this lose pre needs to be backed up by a lot of aggression, dont know how to make up for the lose calls otherwise

this is funny. Idt the villain is putting in ample time constructing his pf ranges and how he needs to play those ranges post on on certain textures to make for his fundamentally unsound pf play. see what I mean?

i think what does he do with all his SD GS he didnt hit the turn with? c/c? c/f?

dont know to give a competent answer for this villian you need to play him yourself. op got me the idea he is some sort of semi-maniac not carrieng about money at all.

but maybe i got that all wrong

Because he's a loose and bluffy donk. He's probably playing 75% of all starting hands in the BB, and calling the flop with 45% of those. So we're talking 450-550 combos of hand that can each randomly decide to c/r the turn, and you're putting him on 16 combos the majority of the time once he check/raises? That would have him check raising like 4-5% of his range. This from someone who you said likes to go crazy with long shots. I don't see why he can't have any two pair, any gutter, any flush draw to take this line.

edit: you probably have a much clearer picture of what his range is here than I do, but I'm think you're greatly overestimating his 54 frequency and I'm probably mildly underestimating it.

DGAF,

I think a lot of these guys are over thinking the villian's turn range. I liked the way you played the hand a lot, and give you a lot of credit for making a logical call for a whole bunch of money on a terrifying board. When he shipped 5k on the river, did you start to like your hand a little more than you did on the turn? I assume you were planning to call a reasonable bet when you called the turn raise. if I am in your shoes and this player type moves this many chips on a river that drastically and obviously changes the nuts, I am starting to think yum yum in my head.

also the profiler in me has seen a tell.

if he loves these crazy big allins, why the small c/r with the nuts?

look in the future if he repeats that betsizing tell. guess a small raise by him could be for thin value like in that part with 32o.

a huge raise is propably a draw or a nutted hand.

test it and find out if im right here

try to play HU against these guy if the tell is correct. you get all the money back you lost on flips i swear to god

^^lol

bewareof me my laser eyes can make your sun glases explode at the pokertable. guess i take another line