I think a hand like 4-5 is more likely than 7-9. But with the huge overbet I'm still weighing it heavily towards a straight. There are some guys that like to bluff shove with a huge bet just to make you fold (I can think of a maniac who regularly played in a 25-50-100 private game in DC who bet over 100k into a pot of about 50k and he made a friend lay down top two).

But I think this is a fold - this feels to me more like V thinking "DGAF may call if I overbet figuring I'm bluffing". I suppose one potential option would be shove over the top representing exactly 7-9. Not sure I'd want to try that though.

yeah, we shove our cards at the dealer

At least those numbers add up to 100 imo .

So what did he end up having?

4x for the win!!

Ughhhhhh just reading this makes me feel that heavy gross stomach feeling where you know you should fold because calling will just make you go 'aiiiiiii-yaaaaaaaaaa.....nice hand....straight is good'

For whatever reason I imagined your villain to be a loosy-goosy sammy farha type like on HSP when they love their "long shots" and make MASSIVE raises when they're good. Plus that type seems to love random garbage hands like 7/4 that when they hit, they smash the board and "can't be put on that hand".

Cringe fold. Ugh. Why can't that board pair?!?!

one thing that hasn't been brought up is the fact that this guy just called a small 3x pf raise in the blind and now he's all of a sudden putting a ton of money in the pot. eff stack is 17k so this guy is calling pre w/ a ton of hands esp to a small pf raise. its pretty hard for him to be bluffing here i think if this were the case guys like this would prob bet less than 5k. ya he's a rich guy we should take that into account but its still a 5k bet...

I don't know why the whole 7-9 or 4-5 discussion is relevant to this particular situation

The guy is a rich aggro rec player who has been running insane.

call or fold 50/50 end of discussion.

I would call, or at least only fold if he agrees to show his hand, but i see those cards one way or the other, the info alone is worth it.

But he i always say that in live poker your calculator is the faces, behavior and talking of your opponents, and the mathematics are for on-line, and i am tens of thousands in the plus over 30 years of playing live nlhe and plo, because sometimes you just have to know, and this would be one of those sometimes.

But he everybody plays his own game, and when are you going to reveal the hand DGAF?

come on bro. were you playing open face as well?

No i like too have some control over my play, because ofc is just a glorifyed hi-low game in my opinion.

So gross of an over bet, I'd fold but if I was steaming and stuck in hoping he has an under set and didn't realize the runout which I've seen alot

But it looks like a clear fold

So I think this is a fold because:

1. Your call of his CR on the turn is pretty strong when combined with what hits on the river and he still overbets. You have a ton of str8's/str8 draws in your range after the turn call, so he would be daft to 3x the river without at least a 1 card str8. I would think he c/c all the rest of his lower set, two pair value hands (or b/f a smaller amount).

2. You said yourself villain knows you can/will call light so that should mean he overbets for value more against someone like you than a tighter player.

3. He has been running like the sun. Ldo, of course he got there again...

Gross hand, but pretty easy fold.

given villains description i think he can play all combos of 79 like this but we can agree to disagree i suppose.

Results:






Thanks for all the replies.

Talking to an opponent can be awesome sometimes. I also rarely do it, maybe once every few nights. Only will try it when contemplating a big river call, really no other times. It definitely isn't going to hurt to try to pick up some free info; perfectly ethical imo, they don't have to answer.

Good play - it's absolutely not "bush league" to try to engage V in conversation IMO. Once you are in a call/fold situation might as well try to get more information. Experienced players won't give up much but it's always worth a try.

Talking is perfectly fine, I definitely don't think it's angly and it's all part of live play.

I have seen this before but alot of times it's an under set but the over bet is pretty sick

Well I am in the fold camp as well. As for talking to your opponent... I got fish to Show me his hand after he bet 940 on the river and I had calling chips in my hand. Usually my opponent won't say anything or just something ambiguous but every now and then it really pays off. Still a sick call tho.

Like i said in live poker the way you opponents behave, talk, and look is your calculator.
And most important is you got information that is worth more then the 5k IMO.
Good luck in the future.

Good luck is the child of hard work, excellent choices, better decisions and positive actions.

Bad luck is the result of laziness, bad choices, incorrect decisions and negative actions.

Good luck is not permanent, and it may become bad luck if you are carried away by the fruits of good luck.

Ya with the info in the op, we should be folding ainec to agree w many others. Plenty of reasons can make this a call (obv, it's live poker) including some solid information about his lack of understanding of hand values in various situations/his tendency to click buttons but ya.

And I had to reread what you wrote about talking. Baffled how anyone could think talking during a hand in the way you did could be angleshooting. If anything, talking only sucks for the others at the table who have to wait. Obviously the bigger the hand and to a lesser extent the more unique the spot, the more reasonable this becomes.

post more

I appreciate the sentiment. I could not disagree more with the content. Luck is...

It's not angle shooting. But 99/100 times it is poor form and bad for the game imo- when it's pro (even though I never win) vs rec. It's different than when I have the nuts every time I'm all in against you, you tell me you have the second nuts, call me a joke, and fold. That's fine.

DGAF - I find it pretty interesting that you think it's bad for the game - can you explain why? This is a sentiment that I don't think most of your peers share. I doubt you'll change anyone's mind here, (myself included) but it would be interesting to hear your reasons.

slight derail, TLDR, cool story bro --> Funny enough, one of the only times I've ever been put in this spot was by Gman several years ago. We played a pot and got down to the river and I fired after bricking out. He knew his options were either hero call or fold, so he started fishing for info for about 30 sec.

I was decent enough about hiding information during a silent hand, but I wasn't really mentally prepared for a full interrogation and Gman is pretty skilled at getting a reaction. I stated silent, but eventually, I cracked and had an involuntary physical reaction to something he said. Gman makes the call (he probably would've called anyway) and 3rd pair is good to drag a ~$5k pot.

It had never occurred to me until that point, just to what extent our poker battle could deviate into this new front. We were playing a sub-game that I didn't know existed until I was already playing it. For that reason, that hand had a lasting impression on me.

I myself don't think this was bad form, but I sure would feel better about the couple thousand $$$ that Gman talked me out of if you could convince me otherwise

Anything that slows the game down unnecessarily is bad for the game. And I think I specifically said (if I didn't say it, I meant to) 99/100 it's bad when it's a pro interrogating a rec/fish. The pot has to be really big/the spot has to be exceptional to make it OK imo- and if you are winning a lot and the rec/fish is losing a lot in recent history, it might not be OK under any circumstance.

It's just not good business long term to be too greedy or to alienate/embarrass/piss off a rec/fish in general. Just like a million other things you can do (or not do) at the table to gain a small advantage/earn a few bucks can cost you (and everyone else) a lot of money overall (hard to crush a game when it isn't going ). There are constantly judgment calls to be made at the table wrt right/wrong imo, and yet only the best pros evaluate all the grey areas/they don't just see everything as black and white/legal or not legal under the rules of the game...


As far as you trying to bluff gman and him going hanibal lector on you:

1. You are not a fish. Despite being friendly at the table/a nice guy, no1 cares if you quit. It is not bad for the game at all if you get pissed and stop playing.

2. The guy interrogating is always under zero pressure to keep his hand a mystery- he can literally turn over his hand and it can't hurt him/it can only benefit him. The guy being interrogated however is under a lot of pressure. He's the one who made the move (whether it was for value or as a bluff) and any info he gives away about his hand is extremely problematic/costly... Unless you are in a zen like state somehow (rare at the poker table) AND you like your side a lot in a leveling/reverse tell war, it's best to just remain still/silent and stare at the pot (whether you have it or don't). Your opponent will give up with the verbal stuff pretty quickly ime.

3. Next time make 2nd pair and win all the money ldo.

This is the crux of the matter. I think it wasn't clear to me (and probably others) that you were talking specifically about a spot where you own a fish so bad that you risk alienating them. Sounds like you think this is the standard result vs fish in this spot. Good food for thought.