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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 11-04-2015, 04:16 PM   #1
DocSkillz
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M8trix $5-$10

M8trix $5-$5-$10, 8-handed

V: 20s white kid, seen take b/f and thin value lines, seems like a pro

$3100 effective, V barely covers

V UTG+2 raise $35. One flat. Hero 3! OTB AA $105.

V calls after 5sec, flatter calls.

Pot: $330

Flop: 732

Check to hero, bet $250. V thinks for 10-15s and c/r to $550. Flatter folds. Hero calls.

Pot: $1430

Turn: K

V bets $800

Hero calls.

Pot: $3030

River: K

V snap ships, ~$1700.

HERO?
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Old 11-04-2015, 04:38 PM   #2
pocketzeroes
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

Definitely fold on river. I'm gonna be a complete nit here and say that you may want to consider just folding flop, especially since you have Ac. Does a "pro" min-check raise OOP with 300BB stacks an unknown with an overpair/top pair/naked FD or air? I think he's pretty set heavy until he proves otherwise. Sure, he's gonna flip up the 55 sometimes (and tilt you if you folded), but that's going to be very rare.
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Old 11-04-2015, 04:57 PM   #3
TheGramuel
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

This'll probably get locked/moved to MHFR, and I only play up to 2-5, but this is almost always a fold at my stakes.
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Old 11-04-2015, 05:04 PM   #4
pocketzeroes
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

flop/turn depend a lot on your image. If V might think you're bad/station, just sigh fold flop. Otherwise call flop, call turn, fold river. If you have a little bit more to go on, maybe you can call all streets.
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Old 11-04-2015, 05:12 PM   #5
Peter3041
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

river seems like and easy fold, I'm not getting away on the flop that often as V can have a lot of smaller over pairs here but the turn barrel scares me. I may fold turn but river is defiantly a muck.
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Old 11-04-2015, 05:29 PM   #6
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

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Originally Posted by Peter3041 View Post
river seems like and easy fold, I'm not getting away on the flop that often as V can have a lot of smaller over pairs here but the turn barrel scares me. I may fold turn but river is defiantly a muck.
I just don't see a "pro" with 88-QQ min x/r'ing flop that was 3bet pre by someone who (I assume) is mostly unknown to him. And if said pro does do this with those hands, is he going to just x/f a K turn? No, at this point I think he's hoping to fold out JJ-QQ. So I really see no way I'm calling flop then folding turn.
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Old 11-04-2015, 05:29 PM   #7
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

Turn needs to be raise/fold as V is shoving his range otr most times. Is this V open-c TT+ AK UTG? Not sure of the game flow, any 4b from V? JJ/QQ/AK that doesn't 4b pre might take this line, as would sets and 45/56/A5 and a handful of FDs. AP can't call Kc River as that card comprises a good number of hands hero wanted in Vs range -- the rest of his semibluff FD range got there, if it was a value line with sets then those shove, which leaves a JJ/QQ hand that didn't 4b pre and 45/56 non clubs as all hero beats.
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Old 11-04-2015, 08:32 PM   #8
DocSkillz
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

I was an unknown. Never played with V before.

Image was probably TAG, but only played 1 hr when this hand came up.

Does anyone like a 3! on flop? If so, is it always a 3!/f?
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Old 11-05-2015, 01:45 AM   #9
pig4bill
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

Maybe. But people don't like to fold flush draws with 2 cards coming, so a shove on the turn may have worked better.
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Old 11-05-2015, 03:04 AM   #10
acescracked84
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

Way more pre. Fold turn.
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Old 11-05-2015, 04:00 AM   #11
Ray Zee
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

if you call this turn you must move in.

with aces where i am going to play most pots far in no way am i going to give 40 to 1 to someone with a small raise like you did pre flop.
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Old 11-05-2015, 06:38 AM   #12
BackDoorFlush
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

What is V's image of you? Is this your first 3! at the table? Has V seen you get out of line?

If you've been sitting at the table for an hour and not doing much, then you need to find the fold button in this hand. Your hand is face up to a thinking player/pro. He knows that you have a big PP, and he's shoveling money into the pot. He can beat it. If you've been getting out of line, then you need to GII.
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Old 11-05-2015, 06:47 AM   #13
BackDoorFlush
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

Hero is way too deep to make it $105 on the button, especially against a pro/thinking player. You need to make a huge raise to make it look like a bluff/squeeze ($205 or something), or you need to flat.
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Old 11-05-2015, 07:57 AM   #14
venice10
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

Moved from LLSNL. The odds that he called you with a FD pf are low because you own the ace. If you didn't intend to put your stack at risk, you should have folded after the raise on the flop.
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Old 11-05-2015, 10:40 AM   #15
The Muffin Man
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

150 pre. Fold river or earlier.
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Old 11-05-2015, 11:10 AM   #16
Ray Zee
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

you have 300bb here to start. you are against a better player not a passive one you can milk for much. you need to bet enough to force him to have a large pair or get him out.
sounds wrong for those that are used to playing online short stacks but deep stacks is a different game.
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Old 11-05-2015, 11:12 AM   #17
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

in deep stack games you must never play a hand so that a good opponent can put you on what you really have unless it is all going in or you want him out.

or all you can do is win small pots, get run off at some point or get broke.
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Old 11-05-2015, 11:59 AM   #18
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

Your 3-bet is too small, but not really for the reasons any one here has given. There is simply more value/EV in a larger size. If this game had some weird rule that the max preflop raise were $105, then you should clearly reraise to 105 here with AA and a lot of other hands. This idea that small reraises are bad with deep stacks because of giving the opponent too good implied odds is kind of absurd and anti-math. It is true that reraising gives information about your range, but so does overcalling. You have position and the ability to put your opponent on a range, so you should be able to make a ton of money 3-betting AA to any size here.

Postflop, I really am not a fan of putting players in 25 hand per hour poker on sets exactly just because they raised the flop. Considering that you bet enormous, I wouldn't hate folding to his raise, but I would probably have bet closer to 175 with plans on calling most raise sizes. As for his range, I think sets should be somewhat discounted because a good percentage of the population open limps them from EP. Someone mentioned that you block the NFD, but I think the equity bump you get with that probably more than mitigates the fact that he's somewhat less likely to be semibluffing when you hold it. You will have a pretty damn profitable hand on club turns and have two full nut outs on non-club turns.

As played I think turn is a legit tough spot but I'd probably call, and the river seems to be a fold. There were a significant number of flush draws in his range IMO and that should be enough for you to release this hand.
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Old 11-05-2015, 07:13 PM   #19
ravager 102
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

too bad we aren't 7k deep so we can pile over his river bet
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Old 11-05-2015, 08:22 PM   #20
Ray Zee
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

if you just call on the tun it must be so you can escape the river. but the king of clubs comes and you fold. that means he didnt have it so he cant have trips to beat you. so his hand is a bluff, two smaller pair, trips, or a flush.

so is he the type that would check raise min with a weak flush draw on the flop hoping to bluff on 4th street. you have seen the ace and king so he probably didnt play with a flush draw to start. so you hand is good most of the time unless he has trips or played ak funny.

but since 2,3 is out on the flop and he might not open raise with them his only real hand is 77 to beat you.

i move in on 4th here. and if i didnt for some absurd reason i would gladly call on the river.
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Old 11-06-2015, 06:33 AM   #21
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

Hi Ray. nice to see you post. The 20s ex-online players are usually coming in for a raise with any pair so I think we need to give him credit for the full 9 combos of boats here.
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Old 11-06-2015, 08:08 AM   #22
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketzeroes View Post
flop/turn depend a lot on your image. If V might think you're bad/station, just sigh fold flop. Otherwise call flop, call turn, fold river. If you have a little bit more to go on, maybe you can call all streets.
Why do I always get dealt your sn?

---

Wp, fold river.

Edit: yeah, bigger pre.
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Old 11-06-2015, 11:39 AM   #23
Ray Zee
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

hey doc, the kid opened raised so i give less credit for deuces or threes. but if they are doing that in the game then you of course must consider trips here much more. and also pound them on their opening hands with big raises.

once the op calls the check raise he basically is telling himself he is going with the hand. so if he does which he did he needs to play it to win and not damage control.
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Old 11-06-2015, 11:41 AM   #24
Ray Zee
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

but in real life poker if you get 300bb in the pot with one pair with betting throughout the hand you usually are not taking down the money
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Old 11-06-2015, 11:49 AM   #25
DocSkillz
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Re: M8trix $5-$10

Appreciate all the responses. For those who like results...

Spoiler:
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