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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 02-04-2012, 11:40 AM   #1
franklin58
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AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

5/10, villian is good lag who hand reads well and is one of the better players in the game, 2500 effective

Cutoff limps (fishy CS), Villian raises to 70 otb, I raise to $170 in bb w/ AdAc, fish folds, villian calls

Flop (375) - QdJc4d

I bet 400, Villian makes it 2K.......

Fold or Shove?
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Old 02-04-2012, 11:51 AM   #2
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

raise bigger pre.. eg. $250
cbet/get it in on the flop.. eg. $500/call shove. good that you also have the Ad.

you don't have 250bb... you have 125bb. amazing how many live players still don't get that in straddled hands.
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Old 02-04-2012, 12:12 PM   #3
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Having the Ad makes if impossible for villain to have the nfd...so unless you think its good in that you can hit a runner runner flush (which woukd be bizarre so i doubt that), i dont follow.
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Old 02-04-2012, 12:14 PM   #4
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

I also dont understand your sizing pre or on the flop. Like, at all. Id cbet less % of pot and 3b more pre
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Old 02-04-2012, 03:43 PM   #5
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

125BBs, not folding ever....also, bigger pre, and smaller on flop.
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Old 02-04-2012, 03:48 PM   #6
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

250 pre, 400 on flop, all in if raised. Way too many draws on this board for me to fold vs a good lag in a straddled pot.
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Old 02-04-2012, 06:25 PM   #7
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

bigger pre (obv)

how do u do anything else but shove after that cbet?
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Old 02-04-2012, 09:59 PM   #8
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

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Originally Posted by easycall View Post
Having the Ad makes if impossible for villain to have the nfd...so unless you think its good in that you can hit a runner runner flush (which woukd be bizarre so i doubt that), i dont follow.
nope, having the Ad means 1) he's got 1 less out to hit so his equity is less than he thinks esp. good if he's got something big like FD+pair, 2) sometimes when he does hit on the turn his hand could be couterfeited on the river, 3) as played, makes it more likely that villain's raising flop with some junk TP/weaker combo draw/etc than AdQ etc.
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Old 02-04-2012, 11:36 PM   #9
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

For credibility purposes I'm actually the villain in this spot and totally agree that the hero played the hand terribly. Just trying to think about what I'd do with AA in this spot. Ill post me hand later. And even though it's 125bb getting in 2500 on the flop is still looked at as huge in a 5/10 live game so can't totally think about it in relative terms as stupid and illogocal as that sounds.

Keep up the good comments. I'll post my hand later
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Old 02-05-2012, 03:49 AM   #10
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

Preflop, I'd just call the $70 raise. If I did raise, I'd raise to $280.

On the flop, I think you turn your hand face up with your sizing. If villain is good, I think he'll put you on exactly what you have.

I think villain's range contains [QQ JJ 44 QJ], which is actually pretty wide, because I think he gets here with QJo because of your small preflop raise. 18 combos.

I think villain's range also contains some hands we "beat": [KTdd T9dd] for sure. Maybe [KJdd K9dd JTdd J9dd T9dd T8dd] as well, but I think those hands should be discounted somewhat. Between 2 and 8 combos of hands that we "beat." Closer to 2 than 8, I think.

Which is why I can't understand why everyone thinks this is a snap-shove. I'd fold.

What other hands do you think villain is playing this way, that we beat? AQ? KK? 65dd? I don't think he has any of those hands in range. Our hand is face up, villain is smart and shouldn't think he has any fold equity, and so when he shoves, his range must be crushing us.
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Old 02-05-2012, 05:54 AM   #11
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

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Which is why I can't understand why everyone thinks this is a snap-shove. I'd fold.
Our hand is face up, villain is smart and shouldn't think he has any fold equity, and so when he shoves, his range must be crushing us.

It seems you constantly are advocating a very tight strategy in all the responses you make. If you use this very tight strategy in your own play and it works for you that is fine. However, when analyzing other people's hands you have to realize that they are playing a much looser game than you are used to so their opponents are going to adjust their calling and raising ranges accordingly.

You can't just blindly give advice as if the hand is being played by you as the villian. The reason I assume you are doing this is because you said "Our hand is face up". If you are using a balanced 3-betting strategy and c-betting strategy in 3 bet pots then our hand is in no way face up. If you are using a very nitty 3-betting and c betting strat then maybe our hand is face up b/c we will have AA and KK and sets here a ton and will check AK on flop. If that is how you are playing then yes the flop is an easy fold. However, there is no reason to believe OP has a very nitty 3 bet range which would turn his hand face up.
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Old 02-05-2012, 06:11 AM   #12
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

When was the last time you saw a live 3-better lead a queen high flop with an over-bet, and have anything less than an overpair? I can't remember ever seeing such a thing in my life.

It's a huge live tell and the fact that hero is giving off such a tell is very important to the analysis of this hand.

Yeah, sure, if we're balanced and blah blah, then our hand isn't face up. If we can take back that flop over-bet, then sure, this becomes a completely different hand and I can easily see myself stacking off.

But AS PLAYED, I fold to the flop raise and I don't think it's close. And I'm not implying that I'd ever put myself in a situation like this to begin with.

For the record, I 3-bet bluff live preflop more than anyone I've ever met.

Last edited by BoredAtheist; 02-05-2012 at 06:41 AM.
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Old 02-05-2012, 09:51 AM   #13
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

If you give the villian (me) in this hand the following range AA has 28% equity -- QQ,JJ,44,QJ, KTd,9Td,JTd

Add in all combos of KT (pretty ambitious) and your equity is 47%

The hero in this hand snap shoved his AA (not even a thought) which I thought was pretty horrendous. I do think when he bets 400 into this pot he is playing his hand face up. I happened to have JTd which was the bottom of my range in this spot to make this play. Obv I binked on the turn b/c that's what I do but just wanted to hear some thoughts on how you would play AA. Seemed the consensus was ship which I don't agree with but appreciate the advice.
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Old 02-05-2012, 09:56 AM   #14
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

It's not his hand that's face up when he cbet, it's yours when you raised 5x his cbet as something like pair+FD wanting to see 2 more cards... you wouldn't do that if you had a set.
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Old 02-05-2012, 09:57 AM   #15
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtheist View Post
When was the last time you saw a live 3-better lead a queen high flop with an over-bet, and have anything less than an overpair? I can't remember ever seeing such a thing in my life.

It's a huge live tell and the fact that hero is giving off such a tell is very important to the analysis of this hand.

Yeah, sure, if we're balanced and blah blah, then our hand isn't face up. If we can take back that flop over-bet, then sure, this becomes a completely different hand and I can easily see myself stacking off.

But AS PLAYED, I fold to the flop raise and I don't think it's close. And I'm not implying that I'd ever put myself in a situation like this to begin with.

For the record, I 3-bet bluff live preflop more than anyone I've ever met.
So you put big money in frequently when you have nothing, but when you hold AA or a ton of other big hands in other threads, you fold after limping c/c etc etc.(from your other threads)

Think about that.
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Old 02-05-2012, 10:03 AM   #16
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

I just assume bored athiest is leveling in all his strat posts
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Old 02-05-2012, 10:16 AM   #17
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

Everything aaismyfriend has said itt.
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Old 02-05-2012, 04:09 PM   #18
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

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I just assume bored athiest is leveling in all his strat posts
Bored atheist is a very strange dude. he would bring his own 2 liter of coke to the commerce and chug out of it all day. once i think he even had like a gallon of milk he was chugging out of. soooo....who knows what hes thinking.

Spoiler:
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Old 02-05-2012, 04:15 PM   #19
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

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Everything aaismyfriend has said itt.
Sorta unfair, AA is his friend afterall...
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Old 02-05-2012, 06:35 PM   #20
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

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Originally Posted by 663366 View Post
It's not his hand that's face up when he cbet, it's yours when you raised 5x his cbet as something like pair+FD wanting to see 2 more cards... you wouldn't do that if you had a set.
I see your point but if I had a set I'm probably making the same bet because anything else looks stronger than a shove imo. With that being said against a thinking player maybe I should make it $1100 and not fold to a shove but get max FE with a smaller raise. Thoughts?
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Old 02-09-2012, 01:38 PM   #21
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtheist View Post
Preflop, I'd just call the $70 raise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoredAtheist View Post
For the record, I 3-bet bluff live preflop more than anyone I've ever met.
dude...
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Old 02-09-2012, 02:15 PM   #22
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

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Originally Posted by 663366 View Post
raise bigger pre.. eg. $250
cbet/get it in on the flop.. eg. $500/call shove. good that you also have the Ad.

you don't have 250bb... you have 125bb. amazing how many live players still don't get that in straddled hands.
why is it good he has Ad?

nevermind read your explanation. i don't agree with it. I'd rather not have it, cuz it would give villain a lot more semi-bluff combos that I beat. Still not folding for 125bbs. and I agree with everybody saying raise bigger pre.
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Old 02-17-2012, 09:28 PM   #23
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

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dude...
yeah that's good stuff.

I have the widest 3-betting range of anyone I know, but I don't 3-bet AA in a straddled pot 125BB eff.

Higher level obv.
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Old 02-17-2012, 10:15 PM   #24
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

standard
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Old 02-17-2012, 10:17 PM   #25
franklin58
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Re: AA in straddled 250 bb stacks

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Originally Posted by AAismyfriend View Post
125BBs, not folding ever....also, bigger pre, and smaller on flop.
1. What's your pre flop raise
2. At 125bbs do you always committ w AA regardless of flop?

In the above hand if you know the villain puts you on a big pair are you still stacking off? Maybe online you never fold but live I think it's bad to stack off on this flop.
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