V1 - white male in 60s playing Fit or fold....usually likes to trap with big hands and seen him show up with AA, KK few times after limping pre (1.5)

V2 - asian pro in 20s...not much history but know he is tough with balanced ranges in most spots (4.5k)

Hero - asian reg who plays one or two weekends a month. Image is TAG..not much history with either players (4k)

V1 in MP limps, V2 on the button raises to 35 and hero flats with 56cc on BB. V1 calls.

Flop (110 minus rake)

Jd 7c 8d

Hero checks, V1 checks and V2 bets 75. Both hero and V1 calls.

Turn (~ 335) 4s

Hero checks, V1 checks and button bets 180.
Hero raises to 450, V1 jams all in fairly quickly, V2 tanks a bit and goes all in...

Hero???

Seems like a pretty standard high variance call and potentially get coolered spot. So many combos they can have. I don't think V2 shoves the turn with T9 unless he thinks you're especially susceptible to value shoves.

When you say so many combos what do you think his range is?
I cant really put him on any bluffs since he has to win showdown vs V1.
I also cant see him pushing with any sets especially when my range has a lot of T9 and 56...

You think he has a value hand and decided to turn it into a bluff in the hopes that I fold 56, 77, 88?

I can see him pushing with a set here and hoping you level yourself into a fold with 56 and getting value from anything that calls otherwise. Do you think he sees you as nitty?

Didnt give him any reason to think I'm nitty....
If you think he does this with sets...do you see him do this with AA-QQ?

No, because you already check-raised the turn and he has no blockers with QQ-AA to any of the combos that are ahead of him. You think he'd 4b jam over a 3b jam with just an overpair? If he does he has way bigger balls than I do.

Not sure what the question is??

You turned your magic card, and if you're going to fold the 2nd nuts in this spot then you should be folding preflop

No I dont think he does this with overpair but my point was it's as unlikely he does this with a set.

Don't think any "pro" is bet/4b shoving this turn 400bb without the nuts.. esp given we rep 9T super well


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I think you called and got coolered by T9 and you're out thinking yourself here. As said above, if you didn't like this turn then don't play the hand at all.

Yes, V may realize that a flat of the all-in instead of a shove on top may be giving you odds to peel with a set or flush draw, particularly with implied odds, but I dont think most players can find a fold here unless they have a very strong read.

Actually I'm going to change my opinion: I think you were the villain here and you're checking your line wondering why 54 called you.

Every time you fold here you get shown something ******ed. Like not even a set ******ed. Every time you call you get shown 9Tdd.

Lol live poker

No...I was definitely hero and I ended up folding after tanking for what felt like an hour...was able to see both V's cards at showdown...

Just posted because my poker group I discussed the hand with thought it should have been a call...

Your opponents have an endless amount of sets + 2-pairs + flush draws + straight draws + pair-draw possibilities.

I am still wondering why you played these cards preflop if you're not willing to go all the way with them when you hit the 2nd nuts?

This is just really silly. Im not sure why you keep repeating it.

Although you are correct that cold calling 6 high oop with bad relative position not closing action one million bbs deep with a solid player is burning money.

I never said the 2nd part. (about burning money).

I'm saying that calling a raise with a speculative hand like 56s (loose play) is incongruent with folding the 2nd nuts in this spot (tight play).

If a player is not willing to make the high-variance call on this turn, then what was his plan in calling pre-flop? Was he going to fit-or-fold only something like 6652, or K743 rainbow?

It's a sincere question. Please explain how it's "silly"

Making a loose call preflop doesn't mean we have to shovel in 400BBs drawing dead

3b or fold pre, probably mostly fold. Fold turn, folding the 2nd nuts to a turn b/4b for 400BBs seems pretty good, there's approximately 0% chance you're getting exploited here.

Yeah I've never seen a V over-shove for 400BBs in live poker before without the nuts. Everyone plays perfect and only the house wins. Poker is dead.

Folding pf has nothing to do w this

I'm surprised to see there's discussion about pre it's the easiest call ever folding this pre would be really way to tight and just pretty bad overall because math
Anyway you could probably include all 16 9t combos in either players range, so you'll definitely get shown a straight pretty often. You'll see some worse stuff enough to where you probably have to call.
It would be pretty sick to just say lol and fold cuz you get shown the better str8 so often, but it's not all that realistic.
But the argument that lol yo if you don't know what to do post then fold pre is a pretty bad one and you could say that for almost any hand in poker.

When I initially posted this thread didn't think preflop flat would be the focus...
In respect to GTO, I guess it could be a bad call but I personally play these suited connectors much better post flop than say broadway or AT type hands where if I flop top pair I turn in to a station..
I can see how fit/fold is poor play but in this case against this particular V I didn't think it was a bad plan as stacks were deep and implied odds made up for bad relative position and hand strength preflop...
3! this hand OOP vs strong opponent seemed bad and folding felt too tight...

dude folding pre would be horrible yo nice fold ott

Hand is a perfect example of all the reasons why playing this deep sucks.

Gets stacked w aces post flop
2p2- fold pre if you can't play this hand post