5/T tough spot with 2nd nuts - Page 2 - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum

Your opponents have an endless amount of sets + 2-pairs + flush draws + straight draws + pair-draw possibilities.

I am still wondering why you played these cards preflop if you're not willing to go all the way with them when you hit the 2nd nuts?

Hero has 3 outs to the second nuts on the flop. If you're suggesting folding, before the turn, that was the time. It's perfectly fine to play this hand pre.

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09-08-2017 , 04:46 PM

#28

lolposting2016

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 2,149

like op, im shocked that the discussion about pre even exists, this stuff is sooo solved already and if you arent understanding some of the super standard math behind this stuff you are WAY behind the curve for where the games are at now.

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09-08-2017 , 05:04 PM

#29

Avaritia

Confirmed 2500 hour haver

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 12,248

Are you ****ing high right now?

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09-08-2017 , 06:39 PM

#30

lolposting2016

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 2,149

Yes

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09-08-2017 , 06:40 PM

#31

lolposting2016

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 2,149

But my posts itt are solid

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09-08-2017 , 06:44 PM

#32

diskoteque

Joey Local

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 30,420

The idea that we should fold this hand pre bc we aren't willing to get 500bb in with i think is the same thinking that produces "well if you called on turn now you gotta call on blank river!!" posts

Like, sometimes things change

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09-08-2017 , 09:51 PM

#33

ForHerRing

stranger

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 8

As mentioned above, the reason for the post was to see if advocates for calling on the turn can give me some insight on their thought process...

My friends who advocate the call here has history with V and their read will obviously weigh in but they didn't see him pushing with the nuts other than T9dd...
If V decided to merge his range here and do this with sets or some other goofy hand Ava mentioned then math works out for the call...

Merging ranges isn't my strong suit so I usually put people on polarized ranges with these bets...should V even consider merging in this scenario where T9 slams my range?

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09-09-2017 , 08:22 AM

#34

diskoteque

Joey Local

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 30,420

No he shouldn't

It's live poker

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09-09-2017 , 06:21 PM

#35

isunkurbttlship

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 7,659

Folding pre would be absurd and it's not close.

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09-13-2017 , 03:34 PM

#36

iamallin

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 363

Pretty simple fold on turn.

I hate the flop call.

You have no nut outs. 4 outs to the 2nd nuts and 4 outs to a dummy straight.

I think flop is better as a raise with the back door flush draw.

As played, seems like an annoying but correct fold on turn.

You can call with the current nuts, or hands that draw to the nuts.

Flop call is bad I'm, not the preflop call.

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09-17-2017 , 03:10 AM

#37

boredatheist2

enthusiast

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 80

Fold to the shove, I think.

I think it's better to just call the 180 and maybe raise river when you have more info?

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09-18-2017 , 12:26 PM

#38

ForHerRing

stranger

Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 8

Quote:

Originally Posted by boredatheist2

Fold to the shove, I think.

I think it's better to just call the 180 and maybe raise river when you have more info?

There were a lot of bad cards on the river like 9, T, diamond that will kill the action so thought I'd get some value on the turn

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09-19-2017 , 09:30 PM

#39

grant2

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Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,530

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamallin

Pretty simple fold on turn.
[...]
As played, seems like an annoying but correct fold on turn.

Can you explain why? (asking seriously.)

Quote:

You can call with the current nuts, or hands that draw to the nuts.

If we are folding 2nd nuts here, then it must be because we are nearly certain V2 has has the nuts.

It looks like we have $3440 to call into an effective pot of $5615. So we are getting 1.6:1 on our money; and need to win 39% of the time for this to break even.

A typical 9-outer has a 19% chance to hit with one card left. How does it make sense to fold the 2nd nuts but call on a draw?

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09-20-2017 , 02:11 PM

#40

iamallin

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 363

I meant made hands that draw to a higher hand than the current nuts.

For example in this hand , a set is probably a higher ev call than the 2nd nut straight , even though both may still be - ev

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09-20-2017 , 07:31 PM

#41

grant2

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Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,530

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamallin

I meant made hands that draw to a higher hand than the current nuts.

For example in this hand , a set is probably a higher ev call than the 2nd nut straight , even though both may still be - ev

Makes sense.

Still would like to understand why this situation is a sure-fold for you on the turn.

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09-20-2017 , 10:46 PM

#42

iamallin

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 363

Because I think his shoving range is t9o, t9s, 56s, a few combos fd, very rarely jj

Put this range is any equity Calc and see the equity of 88 and 77 and 56cc

Last edited by iamallin; 09-20-2017 at 10:55 PM.

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09-21-2017 , 09:26 PM

#43

grant2

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Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,530

Can you tell me what specifically makes you think that his range is so narrow?

(I am not arguing. I just want to learn the logic that gets us to that decision.)

Conversely: If V2 has JJ/88/77/AxD, what would you expect him to do differently?

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09-21-2017 , 10:15 PM

#44

iamallin

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 363

How do you ever find out what someone's exact range is in a spot that happens so infrequently ?

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09-21-2017 , 11:43 PM

#45

A_C_Slater

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Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 8,343

This is why Doyle said you should never draw to the ignorant end or you'll be walking back to Houston after you let them cum through the window.

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09-22-2017 , 02:27 PM

#46

grant2

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Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 9,530

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamallin

How do you ever find out what someone's exact range is in a spot that happens so infrequently ?

If you're asking me, I have no idea.

I'm assuming villain has sets, flush draws, and even something wacky like 2p at least as much if not more often than he has the single hand that beats us.

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