No your wrong. You are most definitely making a mistake by eliminating aces from both V's range. Yes the ace is 100% a bad card for hero and it does hit villians range because we don't have it and V1 will have floated here with good aces some of the time because closing the action/good odds on flop..

Anyway you look at it we lose equity on Ace turn against over 95% of both V's range..

Easy easy fold not losing sleep over it lol

You are misreading the hand, v1 doesn't close the action on the flop

It's super hard for either villains to have an ace without a 9 here.

Sorry I meant V2 definitely over calls here with some frequency hands like AK he decided to play passive pre, AQ, or AJ getting around 5:1? and closing the action. V1 also definitely has some aces in his range..

One reason we are discounting aces for the SB (V2) is he didn't 3 bet preflop, though he is described as "one of the best players in the room".
If he has us beat I'd be looking at 9x or 44 as most likely. V1, the original raiser, who is behind us may or may not have a big A or a hand like KK. He kind of denied the big A by checking behind on the turn.

Of course we also made it unlikely we had a big A when we checked the turn.

So V2 could be looking at all this and thinking- "hmm I can push both these guys off the hand with a big bluff" with my medium pair. He is described as losing in the game, and could be tilting a bit.

But we are caught in the middle, and I guess we need to fold now.

Looks like 9Thh. Vs never have an Ace here, what are you talking about?

Your wrong. Both Vs can show up in this spot with ace refer to my previous post


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JRR63, sb can flat open with AQ, AJ and even AK he decided not to 3b. If I was SB here and I had AQ or AJ I could definitely see myself just call sometimes not always 3b, that should be case for most players in this spot

Original raiser could also have AK AQ AJ even some smaller suited aces he decided to call ur 3b. After u lead on flop he floats u hoping to hit A or K on turn thinking u don't have a 9. Pretty basic level thinking

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I don't say it's impossible for SB to have a big A, just less likely, given the description and the way it was played. But whatever - the QQ is not looking very pretty at this point.

What do you think is the reason why it makes sense from a theoretical perspective. Or does it? I think you will generally get better responses if you outline your thought process and then see if anyone reacts rather than ask for someone to come in and spell it out completely.

Well after asking some guys I really respect I think reason to bet smaller on flop is to keep wider range of hands in for V when we have it and to cheap c bet when we don't. Turn bet is trying to extract value because we aren't ever going to double barrel without good equity

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ya hear that? he dont respect none of ya'll

There arent a lot of Ax in SB range because its limited to AKs that decided to CC twice OOP. As for other villain - this deep Original raiser should be repopping AK a ton. Maybe loose tournie player could show up w/ AQ but I dont see SB showing up w/ less than AKs for the same reason outlined.

Then you want to assume loose tournie player floats flop 4 way w/ 6 outs on board where maybe only 3 of those outs are good? I guess if we think our villains are complete droolers, sure we can start loading them up w/ Ax.

We never got the turn action though? Am i to understand it checked thru?

River is a fold, as stated we beat poorly played JJ/TT there and maybe 1 combo of bizarre spaz air "im bored, its live poker" hand - its poor bankroll management to hero call here.

i want to add i forgot about the stuck 3-4K comment - i'm not sure if it sways me enough to warrant advocating a call here still - I'm just in an insufficient information position. I know being stuck makes folks act crazy but I feel like it requires the kind of had to be there to see the player/how he plays/how he shoves/timing etc

This hand is pretty standard except for your squeeze pre was too small, assuming you folded river.

325 pre

1/3 pot flop
check turn
fold river

I'm extremely concerned about SB over calling the flop.... I mean, any good player should be throwing just about everything he can have that isn't 9+ into the muck... even JJ.

I suppose it's possible he called with some bull****, deciding to rep a 9+ regardless of the runout.... if he did this, just tip the cap and move on. This is just an awful spot to hero call, we have most if not all of the AA in our range to protect against that play if we thought villain was capable of that. Which is all we need vs. such an unlikely line.