$25/$50 game

Game is a mix of recs and pros.
I have $15k
Some pros cover.

I am in BB.

Rec businessman opens in EP to 150. Rich pro 3 bets in MP to 500. Mini dan bilz. Born rich but plays professionally. I look down at black KK in BB and 4 bet to $1500. Pro stares me down and 5 Bets to $3500. He covers. I call. ?


Flop 7200

Qh jh 5c
I check?
Pro checks.

Turn 7200
Qh jh 5c th

I check ?
Pro bets 2500

What do we Do?

1. Should we shove or fold preflop instead of calling?
2. Should we lead small on flop because he should never be 5 betting qq and jj but we could have those hands?
3. Should we block bet turn blocking ak?
4. What do you do against a small turn bet? With
Black kk
Kk with a heart
Qq
Aa
Ak with or without heart

Thanks

For me when I'm playing anything over 200bb I don't have a 4 bet range especially from the blinds. So I prefer a flat pf.

no 4b vs vs rec open, pro iso?

A 4bet strategy is reasonable, but not my style in deeper games vs tougher opponents.

What's your 4 bet range? AA, KK, AKo, AQo?

^I'm kinda interested in your reasoning for a non 4betting strategy. It feels like a significant leak to me, but i'd definitely like to be proven wrong.

1. 4b/call would be my standard line also. Shove seems ok too vs a "mini Dan Bilzerian", though
2. I prefer a lead with say, AA or AhQ rather than black KK, but it can't be bad.
3. i dont like betting turn however. Let him bluff/rep the AK himself since we block it so strongly. Not much to protect against anyway.
4. Black KK is probably the worst hand we show up with, so it might be a fold. Since he has so little true value combo's i probably call with that hand anyway, as well as with all others.

For me it's a trade off since I like to play more hands vs a 3 bet especially in position I always want to have JJ+, AQ/AK in my range in these spots as I'll also have 53s, 64s, 56s hands.

By having a 4 bet range I could play a similar range, but I feel my value hands get paid less and my bluffs are always vs the strongest parts of villain's range.

Also it sucks the few times when I have KK and get 5 bet.

For me I feel my skill post flop is a lot better so I prefer a simpler pf strategy.

If it was a significant leak, I haven't seen it in my results yet.

Looks like we should start bluffing on the turn and then jam river. We have the worst hand we can have right? And our opponent has AA a lot and we should show up with JJ/QQ/AK a ton here right?

I like Mr Spyutastics idea though of never 4-betting here pre at this depth as it seems hard for us to balance and getting 5-bet sucks so much with everything except AA.

Never 4betting here is a big leak imo and in fact I'm playing my whole continuing range pre as a 4bet or fold but I could see maybe having a calling range along with a raising range... but **** that **** too hard... how tight do you think a MP vs EP 3bet is gonna be?? It's not KK+ for value and occasionally A5s as a bluff lol

Where we should not have a raising range is vs the 5bet; ie I would play my entire continuing vs the 5bet as a call and the rest of my advice is based on that. (also as a side note I probably wouldn't have a 5bet range as villain)

I don't like leading flop.

I like betting turn at a high freq; in fact I'd bet my whole range. It's not like either playing has a disadvantage or advantage in flushes. We block AK and we have 16 combos of AK whereas he's probably not 5betting all AK combos. We have all combos of QQ/JJ/TT (I think we still have TT) whereas he's probably not 5betting any of those, maybe QQ sometimes.

So overall I think this board favors us a lot and this is a good hand to "bluff" with where his range is going to be weighted a lot towards AA... which is another problem that comes along with 5betting pre w/ these positions; his range becomes so narrow that he's basically saying "hey look at me I have AA"

As played I honestly got no clue cause I wouldn't check this turn as played. I guess it's something like jam > fold > call ?? I got no ****ing clue man

^ good post

"Pro stares me down and 5bets to 3500"

Given the 5B I would heavily discount sets of QQ and JJ. So he is either bluffing with A5s suited connector hands/air, was bluffing and got there with AK, or has AA. I think the extremely small turn sizing suggests to me that as a pro he is betting to induce a shove against his AA.

If he had a bluff he would bet flop or bet the turn larger.

I think this really sucks but call the turn given the price. Fold river unimproved if not (but calling river shove with any reads he could be bluffing). If you hit a K on the river C/C.

I agree with ABCforME, except I'd fold K river.

He has AA, but he's not folding. It just doesn't happen in a 5-bet pot.

His rationalization for calling down would be this. He could have KK-JJ, and AK. I block AK. AK and JJ may not 4-bet. So he has QQ, some AK and KK. Plus bluffs. Then he'll call.

I agree with Jarretman on never having a cold calling range here. Too narrow and easy to screw up.

I'm just trying to figure out what sizing we'd want to use on the turn. Small turn jam river looks bluffy since any set or straight will want to charge high hearts / KK OESD and that's not how we do it. But I also hate betting like 4000 and leave 7500 back with 15200 in the middle because he might just decide to call it off on a blank or board pair.