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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 03-16-2019, 10:55 AM   #1
CopperCrazy100
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5/5/10 Nut Flush Draw Paired Board OOP

Straddle is not mandatory in this game, but 3 players have been live straddling (not button straddling) at the table.

Seat 1 has been playing very loose preflop (50-60% preflop) and has only showing aggression post flop when he has the best hand. He has only raised when having a very strong hand and only bluffed when having initiative. If he misses completely, he folds on the flop or will call in position with almost any draw.

Seat 9 is playing about 30% of hands preflop and has some situational awareness. He has laid down big hands this session, when he thought he was beat.

Starting Stacks:
Seat 9: $1,150
Seat 1: $1,700
Hero (seat 7): $1,900

Hero is in seat 7 in SB with A2hh

Preflop Action

Seat 9 live straddles 10, seat 1 limps, seat 5 (whale) limps, Hero raises to $45, seat 9 3-bets to $95, seat 1 calls, whale folds, hero calls

Flop: TT3hh

Hero Checks, Seat 9 bets $200, Seat 1 Calls $200, Hero???
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Old 03-16-2019, 12:14 PM   #2
Czech Rays
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Re: 5/5/10 Nut Flush Draw Paired Board OOP

Pre is a big mistake. The thing about A5 suited being a perfect part of your 4bet bluff range for specific purposes does not make it a strong hand per se, and even so A2s is a wayyy weaker hand. In this spot in the SB, it's a fistpump overlimp with the whale in the hand but raising does so many bad things. It bloats a multiway pot OOP with a specualtive hand, it reopens the action allowing you or the whale to get knocked out pre.

As play postflop it's an about as gin as it could be for a fd flop seeing as the paired T hugely increases you fold equity. All in.

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Old 03-16-2019, 12:31 PM   #3
CopperCrazy100
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Re: 5/5/10 Nut Flush Draw Paired Board OOP

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Originally Posted by Czech Rays View Post
Pre is a big mistake. The thing about A5 suited being a perfect part of your 4bet bluff range for specific purposes does not make it a strong hand per se, and even so A2s is a wayyy weaker hand. In this spot in the SB, it's a fistpump overlimp with the whale in the hand but raising does so many bad things. It bloats a multiway pot OOP with a specualtive hand, it reopens the action allowing you or the whale to get knocked out pre.

As play postflop it's an about as gin as it could be for a fd flop seeing as the paired T hugely increases you fold equity. All in.

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I actually dont remember the exact action preflop I just know that the straddle raised and there was $250ish in the pot on the flop. It might have been limped by 5 players including me then the straddle made it so there was about $250 in the pot with 3 or 4 callers including me. It's hard to remember, and I agree raising preflop is a huge mistake OOP if I did that. Next time I'll just say that. Thanks for the reply.
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Old 03-30-2019, 08:07 PM   #4
tormos
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Re: 5/5/10 Nut Flush Draw Paired Board OOP

I would make it 70 pre, there's 40 in the pot before it gets to you.

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Old 04-04-2019, 07:10 PM   #5
ABCforME
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Re: 5/5/10 Nut Flush Draw Paired Board OOP

I would imagine you are posting this clearly trivial shove because the flatter had a T. Which is fine, you still had 30%.

You should have just called pre. Nut flush > flush is how you win 750BB bots with three streets of fat value. It’s classic hand looks pretty syndrome to bloat the pot and lower your SPR when you’ll have no idea where you are at with a paired ace and only one street of betting before you are stack-committed. So bluff catching for value is out of the question too

Has your opponent made these types of flat cap 3B raises before? It could be the nuts like AA or KK if he never min raises it up but I know players who will do this with even average cards to build a pot IP.

Just wondering, did you consider a 4B line here. You could make it 295ish pre then lead flop 1/3 (200) and get a lot of folds if you can sell it well enough versus this guy. 4B lines are indeed super profitable but you need to play the opponent.

Last edited by ABCforME; 04-04-2019 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 04-25-2019, 12:25 PM   #6
CopperCrazy100
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Re: 5/5/10 Nut Flush Draw Paired Board OOP

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Originally Posted by ABCforME View Post
I would imagine you are posting this clearly trivial shove because the flatter had a T. Which is fine, you still had 30%.

You should have just called pre. Nut flush > flush is how you win 750BB bots with three streets of fat value. It’s classic hand looks pretty syndrome to bloat the pot and lower your SPR when you’ll have no idea where you are at with a paired ace and only one street of betting before you are stack-committed. So bluff catching for value is out of the question too

Has your opponent made these types of flat cap 3B raises before? It could be the nuts like AA or KK if he never min raises it up but I know players who will do this with even average cards to build a pot IP.

Just wondering, did you consider a 4B line here. You could make it 295ish pre then lead flop 1/3 (200) and get a lot of folds if you can sell it well enough versus this guy. 4B lines are indeed super profitable but you need to play the opponent.
I shoved. Seat 9 called with QQ and seat 1 said he folded T9. I had talked to 3 pros/friends of mine afterward, and they thought it was very loose. One said it was a good play though, and the other 2 said it was a bad play.

I was incorrect in describing the action. I limped the sb and the straddle raised to 45 with seat 1, the whale and myself going to the flop. I do occasionally limp reraise A2-A5s but didnt feel now was the time, as I didnt have much info on seat 9 and had been fairly loose passive.
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Old 04-25-2019, 03:49 PM   #7
Renton555
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Re: 5/5/10 Nut Flush Draw Paired Board OOP

Not sure how we're supposed to give analysis of the hand when you don't even remember what happened before the flop.

In whichever way you managed to put in 95 pre with A2s from the sb, I can't imagine it was a good play so I can offer you that much.
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Old 04-27-2019, 12:00 PM   #8
lolposting2016
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Re: 5/5/10 Nut Flush Draw Paired Board OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Rays View Post
Pre is a big mistake. The thing about A5 suited being a perfect part of your 4bet bluff range for specific purposes does not make it a strong hand per se, and even so A2s is a wayyy weaker hand. In this spot in the SB, it's a fistpump overlimp with the whale in the hand but raising does so many bad things. It bloats a multiway pot OOP with a specualtive hand, it reopens the action allowing you or the whale to get knocked out pre.

As play postflop it's an about as gin as it could be for a fd flop seeing as the paired T hugely increases you fold equity. All in.

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Post flop advice is very bad here
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Old 04-27-2019, 12:01 PM   #9
lolposting2016
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Re: 5/5/10 Nut Flush Draw Paired Board OOP

Pf is fine to raise limpets at some frequency and after the price he gives you it’s a mandatory peel
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Old 04-28-2019, 08:14 AM   #10
Renton555
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Re: 5/5/10 Nut Flush Draw Paired Board OOP

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Originally Posted by lolposting2016 View Post
Pf is fine to raise limpets at some frequency
Highly debatable, and even if true it wouldn't be to 45, an amount that offers 0% immediate fold equity.
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Old 05-01-2019, 07:04 AM   #11
Jarretman
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Re: 5/5/10 Nut Flush Draw Paired Board OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by lolposting2016 View Post
Pf is fine to raise limpets at some frequency and after the price he gives you it’s a mandatory peel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton555 View Post
Highly debatable, and even if true it wouldn't be to 45, an amount that offers 0% immediate fold equity.
From a theory perspective if you imagine a balanced opening limping strategy (100% limp and no open raises with an appropriate amount of limp re-raising and limp folding) I think it would be a similar-ish range from every position to what the respective position's open raising range would look like, although maybe slightly wider (following the logic of a 4x open raise range is tighter than a 2x open raise range, a 2x open raise range would be tighter than a "1x open raise range").

Therefore, in a roundabout way, we can think of our iso raises as 3bets to each open limp position (once again maybe widened to compensate). Given that V1 open limped 9handed UTG I think A2s is an iso raise exactly 0% of the time. However given the amazing price on a call it's never a fold. So yea I'd be completing 100% of the time pre from a "theory" (lol theory in limped pots in live poker) perspective.

From an exploitative/logical perspective I think it's an even worse raise as I'm assuming we have very little fold equity preflop and our postflop edge isn't enough to overcome being out of position multiway with a marginal holding that doesn't push much raw equity vs even the loosest of limping ranges. If you have reads villain(s) like to limp/fold at a relatively high frequency then go nuts and raise.

Either way the iso-raise size is too small, from a theory or exploitative perspective, like Renton said.

As played just call the 3bet preflop and just call the flop.
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