hi. i am the octopus. first post.

due to unforeseen circumstances i'm back to grinding 5-10.

first session i'm in a rough spot with aces.

any criticism both positive or negative are appreciated.

9 Handed

Hero (covers) AA in the SB

V1 (2xxx) UTG raises to 40

V2 (1500) in the cutoff 3BETS to 140

Hero raises to 325

both call.

FLOP: JJQ

thoughts? do i check here and call down? lead then fold to a raise?

i don't know how to do the spoiler thing.. is this ever a check raise spot? no info on players. i'm relatively new to this card room. i'm in san diego if that helps.

I'd 4bet slightly bigger (2.5x~) at 150bb deep oop but meh not a big deal, especially with specifically aces.

Ya tricky spot. UTG and CO should both be uncapped (as in should have all QQ+ pre) given stack sizes and positions but CO's range is going to be way more diverse as I don't think there's many hands that get to fold facing this action, sizing, and being in position. I guess if CO was 3betting some % of KQo AQo those could fold but even then I don't know... Bottom line is UTG's range should be super tight and narrow and uncapped. CO should be really diverse and also uncapped (but in practice I feel like there's no way any live 5/10 villain is flatting AA as the CO in this spot).

I think the easiest way to play this spot is to bet 25%~ which is what I would do. However, checking makes a lot of sense. If you check, UTG bets and CO raises or calls you can probably just let it go. If you check, UTG bets, CO folds, you can jam or call. If you check and it checks through it's not horrible as your aces don't need a lot of protection. If you check, UTG checks, CO bets, we are in a really ****ty spot and are forced to call 1 street I feel although I'm really hating life (CO has a clear Jx advantage on this board).

Anyway this is the most boring decision point of the hand... both checking and betting are fine. What happens?

I make it 400-425 pre given OOP is weird multi-way so I want to charge now.

I like check. The problem I see with betting small is what if they both call? They could have KK and AQs / KQs but what do you do on turn? Feel like you’re in same spot as flop but you put more money in.

I like check and see what happens.

I checked. UTG jammed. CO called. i folded. UTG proudly tabled QQ and CO mucked. so i don't know exactly what he had but most likely Jx or KK.

i posted this hand in question, because poker has changed a lot since i used to grind 5-10+ in 2011-2015.

given that UTG ranges are usually premiums, i see people balancing their ranges with suited connectors, suited aces and air. i feel like isn't folding in this spot super exploitable by good players?

if we take CO out of the equation and lets say it's heads up vs me and UTG. if i lead and get raised am how often am i folding? and if i call and see a turn that isn't an A or a blank. am i check folding?

thanks again for your replies.

where are you playing 5/10 in san diego? Oceans 5/5/10?

i play at oceans, seven mile, and barona. been hopping around. sucks they don't spread higher in san diego.

You kind of answered your own question re: exploitability. It's not exploitable because it's a multi-way pot. For UTG to be able to exploitably bluff wide, he needs both you and CO to collectively under-defend, and it's very hard for the two of you to collectively not meet MDF.

If it was HU between you and UTG, the situation changes very drastically. In that case I yeah you'll have to call down AA to avoid getting exploited if UTG is the type to call wide pre.

Also a bit of unsolicited personal advice. I don't know your exact situation and how good your are at poker, but if I were you, I would probably not jump right back into 5/T if you haven't been playing in the last 4 years.

YMMV and your local 5/T game may still be very soft, but in my experience, the game has gotten a lot tougher over the years and you may not have the edge you think you do without putting in some more time off the table first.

This is coming from someone who was in a similar boat. Played a lot of poker back in the day and jumped back into the ring about a year ago and in hindsight, I was definitely a fish when I first started playing again.

i appreciate you taking the time to write this. i just can't seem to play my "A" game in any stakes lower. not to mention the rake blows. i've been playing 5-10-20 and occasionally 10-25 prior to quitting to do other things. i don't know if speak for you but it's hard for me to play lower stakes esp preflop hand selection when a normal open is basically a 1.5 blinds. i end up just spewing or running into it.

one thing i noticed is that people are more inclined to gamble. getting 100bb with 7's - 8's. i'm probably rusty and not as good as i used to be.. but i don't think moving down is an option. but yeah. thanks for the advice and gl on the felt.

I think this needs to be a clear mix of everything-check, 1/3, 1/2, and pot and depend on your perception of opponents. I really like betting 1/2 pot versus thinking opponents which will make you look non-committed and betting enough to look bluffy. 1/3 pot versus rec fishes who don’t know the move of starting slow to reel em in with the nuts etc It all depends on your opponents. Here I would probably check given it’s 5/10 which has its spewtards. Calling aggression down probably. If opponent runs the fancy new 1/3 flop, 1/2 turn, and pot river line I probably fold river. How bluffy are these guys really is the question to know ASAP. Watch their hands.

I like the check on the flop. Maybe go a little bigger preflop given that you're out of position. I don't think your check on the flop says that much about your hand strength because there just aren't that many likely draws except AK drawing to 4 10's so giving a free card isn't going to hurt that much if you're ahead. Maybe KK might hit a K but that's 2 outs and they almost certainly would have 5-bet preflop. I think you're probably either way ahead or way behind so might as well check and get some information. Most players don't have much experience in 4-bet 3-way pots so they might give off some live tells or do some dumb things.

I think your whole range bets 150 to 200 here and its hard to see what advantages checking offers over that. The pot is huge and the hands you're ahead of are likely not to bet. There are possibly some scenarios where you may get away from your hand vs the first villain, but I think the cutoff always doubles up with QQ here.

Edit: having now read the whole thread, checking did lead to an outcome that worked out well for you. But I think Queens full ripping it 1.25 pot with two more betting rounds left and getting a call making your fold easy was an extremely unlikely outcome to say the least. If cutoff had folded you'd have to call, I think.

Ya that's what I would do but it's definitely tricky... there's really not much difference between betting our whole range 1/5 pot or checking so it's kind of a moot point I suppose (unless you want to talk about exploitative reasons).

We actually suffer a huge nut combo disadvantage given positions pre (do we even 4bet any Jx? QQ? JJ?) which isn't a big deal because of the super low SPR but this flop spot is definitely tricky and not so clear cut. I guess our entire range is just some % of AKo, AKs, KK, AA and some really small fraction of other hands like AQs, AJs, ATs. I don't know what our exact 4bet range should look like in this spot tbh. But the point is I think our all hands interact with this board.

FWIW if the effective spr was 3 or higher with the CO or CO and UTG (ie starting 300bb+ deep), I'd check range.

yeah. if the cutoff folds i think it's a clear call. i guess i'm glad it didn't get checked through on the flop.

thanks for the reply

Flop seems like an obv check, betting 1/5 pot with range is rly bad. Betting AK here is pretty lol, especially when we’re drawing dead half the time already on the flop and if called, basically drawing dead

We have a huge nut disadvantage as well and dont have an equity adv

Mina - in another thread you mentioned betting 1/5 - 1/4 as standard sizing in 4b and 5b pots. Was that only HU you were referring to? Is it more cuz it’s 3way here or the board is JJQ?

1/4 or less is std in 4b/5b pots HU and where we have equity/range adv, but betting every single hand you cold 4b here vs 2 players is just big spew. Main difference really is that cold 4b pots ranges are much tighter and super face-up, whereas if you 4b say CO vs BTN, BTN flats very wide and mostly you’ll have the range adv post

I seriously doubt betting AK here otf is +EV; if anything I think it’s extremely -EV

aa should have an equity advantage considering how many combos of kk there are. Nut disadvantage is not super relevant with this SPR.

I meant as in range vs range, clearly AA has the equity advantage slightly here.

Generally, barring extremities, when you have a nut disadvantage or dont have an equity adv betting full range makes zero sense, esp in a cold 4b pot 3-way.

The SPR isn’t really relevant. If you have AKo no spade on QJ9ss in a cold 4b pot with SPR > 1 with 3 people in, betting is just lighting money on fire.

Unless the SPR is like .5 or something, i’m just range checking here otf (yes even sets and FH)

you should not bet since you only value KK/AQ/(KQs?) very few combo on JJQ board now. Also the board is very solid so no need to bet for protection
Therefore, you should check and induce bluff better than bet.

check-call or check-fold depend on player style. Check-call for aggressive and bluffly player
check-fold for passive and honest players

I just start by betting 1/3rd ish then probably check turns.

Even smaller tbh. 10-25% on this specific board