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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 02-02-2019, 12:58 AM   #1
kingal3x
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5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

Hero:
Hero is decent winning reg at 5/10 in this room and solid. Has gears, capable of calling down light in good spots but edges on the air of caution more often than not. Prefers to value bet thin than call down light. This is probably villain's read on Hero and they have history.

Villain:
Villain is a reg and probably the best player in the room. Buys in deep, plays fast and aggressive and rarely makes mistakes. He's also running on God mode and always seems to have it when called down on the river lately. However, he does make big bluffs, just rarely gets caught - its obvious he makes them quite frequently because he takes down large pots on the river without showdown a very high percentage of the time (unless he's been running on uber God mode for 6 months and has always had it). Hero is a good target for Villain if he's going to force a fold in a big pot and Villain certainly isn't the type to avoid playing big pots against other good players. Villain probably thinks Hero will avoid playing a big pot with him in a high variance and/or difficult situation.

Context:
Hero down 2.5k. Villain up about 5k. Hero has 3bet about 3 times in the last 3 orbits, twice from out of position. Hero not a huge 3! player usually but has been active with the 3! in last 30 mins or so. Villain had a fast start to the game but has been a little quiet for the last hour.

Pre-Flop:
2.5k effective (Hero has 2.5k and villain has about 10k+). Hero dealt red AA in small blind. Folds around to Villain in Cut Off who makes it 40. Hero makes it 175 from small blind (second time I've made this play in last 2 orbits against a late raise). Villain asks to see my stack and calls.

Flop - $360
Js Jc 8s
Hero checks, villain bets 225 pretty quickly. Hero calls.

Turn - 8d - $810
Hero checks, villain bets 600 very quickly. Hero? If Hero calls turn, what's he doing on river? I assume everyone is cool with the way the rest of the hand was played? Let me know if not. Hero has 2.1k when facing the 600 bet on turn.

Last edited by kingal3x; 02-02-2019 at 01:05 AM.
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Old 02-02-2019, 09:22 PM   #2
apricotjello
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

I like x/c all three streets here vs this player type, unlucky if he has a better hand
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Old 02-02-2019, 10:27 PM   #3
kingal3x
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

Does a 7, Q or spade change your river x/c? Said villain is capable of value betting these made draws, seeing as hero is pretty close to playing his AA, KK, QQ hand face up. I guess we could also have AKss, AQss but villain might expect us to fold these on turn.

Last edited by kingal3x; 02-02-2019 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 02-03-2019, 02:23 AM   #4
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

Hand seems fine, xc turn and play a river. You should have JJ/88 here and some Jx/8x btw
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Old 02-03-2019, 10:37 AM   #5
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

there is probably no river we don't like so if we call the turn it is pricing us to see the river, flush draws in 3bet pots can usually be discounted

my problem with this hand is this is such an unusual bet size from villain with Jx which would be the nuts

my other problem with this hand is that it's too much pre flop, he folds his late position opens so often with this sizing and can call with only implied odds which we shouldn't give him. If you are sizing the bottom of your 3bet range this way then you are pretty much handing money over to villain so....

120 pre

but i don't understand villains sizing either, why is he going 4x from the cutoff to call 4x+ re-raise and why is he going 75% of pot on this board? Could he actually have KK or QQ?

I'd be going back into the hand and wondering why 4x in LP, is that a standard for him, is there a BB calling station he is targeting?

now he flats a big raise so some of his opening range can be discounted. I'm thinking a pocket pair here, 88 is a possibility i guess, but can assume villain knows you have AA/KK/AK because of your sizing pre flop?

Last edited by KT_Purple; 02-03-2019 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 02-03-2019, 02:36 PM   #6
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

I've heard it said by a good live player that he doesn't 3-bet pre at all when OOP deep vs a strong player. You can't reduce the SPR enough and you play a face-up range out of position vs someone who can exploit it and has board coverage with his wide in-position calling range.

You'd need to have a good amount of 87s 76s 54s stuff in that 3-bet range too to protect yourself on low and mid boards so it isn't just "LOL I HAVE AT BEST 1 PAIR HERE ALWAYS PLEASE VALUEBET AND BLUFF ME WITH IMPUNITY".

I don't play these deep dynamics much but they are certainly interesting.
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Old 02-04-2019, 02:49 AM   #7
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pilliapina View Post
I've heard it said by a good live player that he doesn't 3-bet pre at all when OOP deep vs a strong player. You can't reduce the SPR enough and you play a face-up range out of position vs someone who can exploit it and has board coverage with his wide in-position calling range.

You'd need to have a good amount of 87s 76s 54s stuff in that 3-bet range too to protect yourself on low and mid boards so it isn't just "LOL I HAVE AT BEST 1 PAIR HERE ALWAYS PLEASE VALUEBET AND BLUFF ME WITH IMPUNITY".

I don't play these deep dynamics much but they are certainly interesting.
Do you really need to have a lot of those small suited connector combos in there if you 3-bet a bunch of pocket pairs?

Sure, you might not have enough straight combos on those low and mid boards, but if you got all the set combos, does not that cover for it?
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Old 02-04-2019, 10:02 AM   #8
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

In answer to some of KT_Purple's questions, this was a standard open size for the Villain and most people at the table. Everyone is at least 200 bigs deep and some people are 500+. Villain's open/fold percentage when in position is almost 0. In general, the open/fold percentage at the table is very low due to the lineup and table dynamic. As a result of this, I'd heavily tightened up my 3bet range (especially out of position) and was lucky enough to be getting good hands so I'm not sure anyone noticed. 175 felt like it would get called without giving away too much info, given the table dynamic and that I had lost a 5k pot in last hour or so. It wasn't an unusual size for the game. My 3! percentage in general isn't very high out of position so I doubt he was putting me on any 8s. Possibly a Jx/Overpair/NFD

Last edited by kingal3x; 02-04-2019 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 02-04-2019, 04:39 PM   #9
KT_Purple
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

sizings can be exploited here when villain goes 75% on this texture

I think folding here is perfectly fine. You are not really being exploited even if you fold the best hand. calling now pretty much means calling every river, imo it's a fine spot to fold
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Old 02-09-2019, 05:01 AM   #10
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

It's your best AA to call cause you unblock AsXs and block AJdd and AJhh but if you think he's calling AJo pre as well it's less relevant. But if he's calling AJo pre then AA is a much better call than TT, QQ or KK (assuming he folds the unsuited Jx variants pre)

On the turn if you want to fold some pairs start with the ones that don't block suited Jx and block his flush draws, like QsQc, QsQx etc. Pairs that are specifically XdXh you can't fold the turn and we can't really fold any AA yet.

On blank rivers this combo of AA definitely can't fold.
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Old 02-09-2019, 11:07 PM   #11
KT_Purple
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

I feel like villain checks back 100% of his flush draws on the paired board and also think we shouldn't worry as much about flush draws in late position 3bet HU pots.

I guess it's possible but i would completely discount it

if he 's working on QQ KK he may check back the river but i'm definitely not folding any card OTR if he bets and his sizing here all around can be exploited even if we fold the best hand so I definitely don't mind folding but the only advice i can give is to not worry about flushes
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Old 02-10-2019, 02:53 AM   #12
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KT_Purple View Post
I feel like villain checks back 100% of his flush draws on the paired board and also think we shouldn't worry as much about flush draws in late position 3bet HU pots.
???

Man I'm done with this thread lol
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Old 02-10-2019, 11:41 PM   #13
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarretman View Post
It's your best AA to call cause you unblock AsXs and block AJdd and AJhh but if you think he's calling AJo pre as well it's less relevant. But if he's calling AJo pre then AA is a much better call than TT, QQ or KK (assuming he folds the unsuited Jx variants pre)

On the turn if you want to fold some pairs start with the ones that don't block suited Jx and block his flush draws, like QsQc, QsQx etc. Pairs that are specifically XdXh you can't fold the turn and we can't really fold any AA yet.

On blank rivers this combo of AA definitely can't fold.
^^This
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Old 02-11-2019, 08:42 PM   #14
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

If you really think he's that amazing you should just buy him a drink and ask him out on a date. If you're really bold you could just get right to it and offer him a HJ under the table. Afterwards, he'll probably be more relaxed and less likely to bluff you. Go get em tiger.
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Old 02-13-2019, 05:09 PM   #15
lolposting2016
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pilliapina View Post
I've heard it said by a good live player that he doesn't 3-bet pre at all when OOP deep vs a strong player. You can't reduce the SPR enough and you play a face-up range out of position vs someone who can exploit it and has board coverage with his wide in-position calling range.

You'd need to have a good amount of 87s 76s 54s stuff in that 3-bet range too to protect yourself on low and mid boards so it isn't just "LOL I HAVE AT BEST 1 PAIR HERE ALWAYS PLEASE VALUEBET AND BLUFF ME WITH IMPUNITY".

I don't play these deep dynamics much but they are certainly interesting.
He’s not a good live player. He’s either trolling you or completely retarded.
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Old 02-13-2019, 05:16 PM   #16
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

But anyway idk if your even supposed to check much on this board it’s a spot where you can just go 1/3 on all 3 streets and he’ll call with worse plenty enough sometimes he’ll Raise you and you can just rely on your 888 and jx to defend with which you’ll have enough of. Aa is a ok bluffcatcher and think the other post where you do something like call with hands like this that unblock fds makes sense if you want to expand calling range
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Old 02-13-2019, 09:56 PM   #17
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

^ya I should've mentioned I'd be betting the flop 1/3 as well. it's not just unblocking fds it's blocking his Jxs as well
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Old 02-14-2019, 11:26 AM   #18
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

folding turn isn't an option, doubt I am folding on many rivers vs played described. sucks that our hand is kinda face up, but thems the breaks ;(
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Old 02-17-2019, 01:12 PM   #19
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

C/r all in on turn. Deny equity to his fd and sd. Bluff out his 8x.

Fight fire with fire ..let'em know u mean business
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Old 02-18-2019, 04:50 PM   #20
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

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C/r all in on turn. Deny equity to his fd and sd. Bluff out his 8x.

Fight fire with fire ..let'em know u mean business
Curious what people think of this. Raising is an interesting option.
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Old 02-19-2019, 08:24 AM   #21
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

Seems like pretty bad advice. Your hand has too much equity and only better calls.

Also you have enough other hands in your range that make better bluffs you don't need to turn this hand into one.
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Old 02-19-2019, 12:19 PM   #22
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

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Seems like pretty bad advice. Your hand has too much equity and only better calls.

Also you have enough other hands in your range that make better bluffs you don't need to turn this hand into one.
What hands make better bluffs? We block AJ and unblock AsX.
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Old 02-19-2019, 12:28 PM   #23
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

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What hands make better bluffs? We block AJ and unblock AsX.
Hands that don't have as much showdown value and or bluff catching potential.
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Old 02-19-2019, 03:15 PM   #24
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

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Hands that don't have as much showdown value and or bluff catching potential.
AKo (without As and Ks)?
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Old 02-19-2019, 06:06 PM   #25
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Re: 5/10 Reg vs God, AA out of position - 2.5k eff - tough spot (I think)

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AKo (without As and Ks)?
Basically what I was thinking. Didn't do any math or sims. Not sure if offsuit with the A or K s would matter too much but maybe.
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