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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 01-07-2019, 12:57 PM   #1
KT_Purple
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5/10 Hero gets to river with bad ace high vs possible bad player

Villian is villain 1 from this hand

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...-nuts-1732747/

So we folded in that hand but took notes.

The following hand occured a couple orbits later and neither of us has played a hand since.

8 handed

Hero (3400) opens on the cutoff with A 7 to 30

Villain (covers) raises the button to 80, hero calls

Pot 175
962

Hero checks, v bets 80 hero calls

Pot 335
3

Hero checks, v bets 155, hero considers raising but decides to play for a river

Pot 690

8

Hero checks, v bets 375
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Old 01-07-2019, 01:49 PM   #2
kimoser22
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Re: 5/10 Hero gets to river with bad ace high vs possible bad player

Quote:
Originally Posted by KT_Purple View Post
Villian is villain 1 from this hand

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...-nuts-1732747/

So we folded in that hand but took notes.

The following hand occured a couple orbits later and neither of us has played a hand since.

8 handed

Hero (3400) opens on the cutoff with A 7 to 30

Villain (covers) raises the button to 80, hero calls

Pot 175
962

Hero checks, v bets 80 hero calls

Pot 335
3

Hero checks, v bets 155, hero considers raising but decides to play for a river

Pot 690

8

Hero checks, v bets 375
c/f river IMO, if you were going to put in a raise I prob would have on the flop you can even go small to like 210. as played I think its fine (also think your line is fine), this deep I don't even mind the turn call vs the less than half-pot bet
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Old 01-07-2019, 09:59 PM   #3
just_grindin
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Re: 5/10 Hero gets to river with bad ace high vs possible bad player

Looks fine. Not sure c/r makes sense on any street but taking the lead might.

Would just fold river. Can't really threaten much other than a set, but I suppose you may need to bluff this combo depedning on your betsizing when you do have sets.
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Old 02-07-2019, 07:26 AM   #4
sabinn
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Re: 5/10 Hero gets to river with bad ace high vs possible bad player

why don't check raise turn? pretty big too, since he doesn't really usually have sets, you have them all, and you put all his overpairs in a tough decision.
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Old 02-08-2019, 08:37 AM   #5
just_grindin
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Re: 5/10 Hero gets to river with bad ace high vs possible bad player

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Originally Posted by sabinn View Post
why don't check raise turn? pretty big too, since he doesn't really usually have sets, you have them all, and you put all his overpairs in a tough decision.
I think a turn c/r makes more sense with say any 9, 8, 6, 5, maybe a 7 or maybe a 10, though the 7 and T might be close. The 7 gives us showdown value and if villain can bluff appropriately it could be a decent call down candidate. The T may just hit villain's range better than our own.

The 3 here just doesn't change ranges significantly enough IMHO.
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Old 02-11-2019, 01:18 AM   #6
poloplaya1414
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Re: 5/10 Hero gets to river with bad ace high vs possible bad player

I think just x/fold. We could x/raise bluff this on turn or river, but on turn I think we have a bit too much showdown value with A high, so I'd rather bluff hands like 87s or KdQd.

On river, I'd rather have a 5 or 4 so we can block 54s on the off chance he 3bet with that hand. 65 with no diamonds would be the ideal bluff.
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Old 02-13-2019, 05:49 PM   #7
DannyAIC
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Re: 5/10 Hero gets to river with bad ace high vs possible bad player

And here I am wondering why we're calling this flop out of position with so little equity...
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Old 02-21-2019, 04:20 PM   #8
Crazy Joe Davola
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Re: 5/10 Hero gets to river with bad ace high vs possible bad player

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Originally Posted by DannyAIC View Post
And here I am wondering why we're calling this flop out of position with so little equity...
Agreed
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Old 02-21-2019, 05:08 PM   #9
just_grindin
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Re: 5/10 Hero gets to river with bad ace high vs possible bad player

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Originally Posted by DannyAIC View Post
And here I am wondering why we're calling this flop out of position with so little equity...
Flop cbet is less than 1/2 pot. We have backdoor straight and flush draws plus potentially live pairs outs and we might have the best hand a certain percentage.

Seems like a reasonable call that has many different options open/available on later streets.
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Old 02-21-2019, 06:25 PM   #10
fro_dude
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Re: 5/10 Hero gets to river with bad ace high vs possible bad player

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Originally Posted by DannyAIC View Post
And here I am wondering why we're calling this flop out of position with so little equity...
2 backdoors bruhhhhh. Having a backdoor is like having a made hand nowadays...keep up.
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Old 02-22-2019, 04:32 PM   #11
DannyAIC
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Re: 5/10 Hero gets to river with bad ace high vs possible bad player

Quote:
Originally Posted by just_grindin View Post
Flop cbet is less than 1/2 pot. We have backdoor straight and flush draws plus potentially live pairs outs and we might have the best hand a certain percentage.

Seems like a reasonable call that has many different options open/available on later streets.
In this spot Runner runner flush happens 3.6% of the time (.20*.18)
runner runner straight happens 2.5% of the time. (.08*.16)*2

I can't remember how you combine the propbabilities, I believe it's addition but I might be wrong.

All I'm saying is if I'm gonna start bluffing, which has the highest probability of winning this hand at this point, I want position. As it is, this is an easy fold.

And the chance of us having the best hand here ever is supremely small unless you know for a fact this dude is min 3 betting real light preflop a lot.

EDIT: And just so we're clear, I'm all for check raising the flop, just not calling the flop
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Old 02-22-2019, 04:34 PM   #12
DannyAIC
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Re: 5/10 Hero gets to river with bad ace high vs possible bad player

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Originally Posted by fro_dude View Post
2 backdoors bruhhhhh. Having a backdoor is like having a made hand nowadays...keep up.
Goddamn the amount of times I've been runner runnered lately...
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Old 02-23-2019, 08:13 AM   #13
just_grindin
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Re: 5/10 Hero gets to river with bad ace high vs possible bad player

Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyAIC View Post
In this spot Runner runner flush happens 3.6% of the time (.20*.18)
runner runner straight happens 2.5% of the time. (.08*.16)*2
The runner runner outs aren't just about a little bit of equity. They give us a way to carry hands that we can bluff to the next street. That way we can avoid weird spots where we don't have enough bluffs. Plus we are plenty deep here so having hands that give us board coverage is also good.

The way I see it we have something like 19 outs to potentially bluff the turn with some backup equity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyAIC View Post
All I'm saying is if I'm gonna start bluffing, which has the highest probability of winning this hand at this point, I want position. As it is, this is an easy fold.
I have no problem with this and generally agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyAIC View Post
And the chance of us having the best hand here ever is supremely small unless you know for a fact this dude is min 3 betting real light preflop a lot.
Pretty sure the dude was a maniac and KQ/kj/suited connectors plus wheel aces are all in people's bluff ranges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyAIC View Post
EDIT: And just so we're clear, I'm all for check raising the flop, just not calling the flop
That's fine can be good as well. I think I would probably flat a lot of my hands here and c/r the turn or take the lead at some point so I think it can make sense either way.

We are fairly deep so maybe a flop c/r is better to better get stacks in with sets.
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Old 02-25-2019, 11:21 AM   #14
DannyAIC
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Re: 5/10 Hero gets to river with bad ace high vs possible bad player

Quote:
Originally Posted by just_grindin View Post
The runner runner outs aren't just about a little bit of equity. They give us a way to carry hands that we can bluff to the next street. That way we can avoid weird spots where we don't have enough bluffs. Plus we are plenty deep here so having hands that give us board coverage is also good.

The way I see it we have something like 19 outs to potentially bluff the turn with some backup equity.



I have no problem with this and generally agree.



Pretty sure the dude was a maniac and KQ/kj/suited connectors plus wheel aces are all in people's bluff ranges.



That's fine can be good as well. I think I would probably flat a lot of my hands here and c/r the turn or take the lead at some point so I think it can make sense either way.

We are fairly deep so maybe a flop c/r is better to better get stacks in with sets.
1. What do you mean by board coverage? My first guess is it has something to do with blockers? Not sure what 19 outs you're referring to, can you clarify? does villain think we're calling a 3-bet with 87 or 108?

2. Then in general, we agree on this whole thing. I was mostly surprised by an out of position call on the flop.

3. I didn't realize V was that big of a maniac, but even if he is, a check raise is still a much better play, so that we deny any equity he might have. (hitting a king or a queen). We also want all his AJ, A10, AQ to fold so we don't get caught. If he calls after the check raise, we can shut down too. as it is, if we're checking down to him, he's gonna keep betting and we either have to risk a big bluff for a hand we could have easily either won or gotten away from on the flop, or just give up all the extra money we put in.

But I think we're seeing the same answer to the hand, with just two differing opinions, one more conservative and another aggressive.
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Old 02-25-2019, 01:52 PM   #15
just_grindin
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Re: 5/10 Hero gets to river with bad ace high vs possible bad player

Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyAIC View Post
1. What do you mean by board coverage? My first guess is it has something to do with blockers? Not sure what 19 outs you're referring to, can you clarify? does villain think we're calling a 3-bet with 87 or 108?
By board coverage I mean that we have a range that could potentially contain some really nutted combinations on most run outs. We definitely shouldn't just call hands for that reason but it's an additional factor to consider and having backdoors, A hogh, etc all makes this hand a reasonable candidate for including in some range that proceeds to the turn whether by raising or calling.

Not sure where I got 19 outs what I think I meant was 19% chance to setup a bluff on the turn given we potentillay hit diamonds, straight making cards, potential 2 pair bluff cards, etc. Basically any card that might make sense that belongs in our range and/or boosts the equity of our current hand on the turn to a degree.

108 is probably a stretch but it's a low 3 bet with high spr so our range could be very wide including all sets for anything under and including JJ and some better suited connectors.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyAIC View Post
2. Then in general, we agree on this whole thing. I was mostly surprised by an out of position call on the flop.
Yes I generally agree with bluffing in position being better etc. I am not totally convinced folding is better but it could very well be. Just at a glance of the hand I didn't see anything glaringly bad. If the flop bet size was larger, 3 bet larger, etc it could all change my opinion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyAIC View Post
3. I didn't realize V was that big of a maniac, but even if he is, a check raise is still a much better play, so that we deny any equity he might have. (hitting a king or a queen). We also want all his AJ, A10, AQ to fold so we don't get caught. If he calls after the check raise, we can shut down too. as it is, if we're checking down to him, he's gonna keep betting and we either have to risk a big bluff for a hand we could have easily either won or gotten away from on the flop, or just give up all the extra money we put in.
That all certainly makes sense. The thing that calling gets us is that it's a much smaller immediate investment now and keeps the pot smaller for bluffing later. So the risk on average might be less than what you'd risk c/r the flop completely. I would say if your only option is bluff now with what is probably very little equity or fold now I agree that fold is the better option by far.

But calling now and bluffing when we gain a little bit more equity and/or when our range is perceived to get stronger might be better than either. Sims might be able to tell us that as well.

Also as I siad it depends on what you are doing with the rest of your range, where you need bluffs for bets/raises in the hand, etc. That can all change my mind.

Also this person could just be such a maniac and is never folding any way in which case folding now is better than continuing and we should wait for made hands where we can call down.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyAIC View Post
But I think we're seeing the same answer to the hand, with just two differing opinions, one more conservative and another aggressive.
Yea I am open to other opinions/interpretations of the best way to play the hand.

I was more pointing out all things considered I could see calling this hand being reasonable.
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