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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 08-08-2018, 02:42 AM   #1
Tomark
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5/10 cold 4! sizing?

effective stacks 2500

BTN is aware, likely winning player, maybe pro, certainly 3 bets light. have played with him before.

UTG+2 didnt seem super like he was gonna call, I think very unlikely he has KK/QQ type hand that is 4 betting or calling a cold 4 bet.

Hero is new to the stakes, is aggressive, particularly postflop, high variance, but i have never cold 4 bet at 5/10 so far. Have been getting crushed by fish from some complete spaz hands hitting, down about 4k.

UTG+2 opens to $30
MP calls
CO calls
BTN raises to $175
hero in BB has AA. What is the sizing here? I expect I will be bluffing in this spot from time to time as well. Also if I cold 4 bet what percentage would you expect btn to call vs 5 bet with AA?
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Old 08-08-2018, 03:04 AM   #2
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Re: 5/10 cold 4! sizing?

250bb deep oop you want to size your 4bet bigger than "normal" 4bet sizing and although I can't give you an exact perfect answer because it's not known, I will say that I would go 3x+ as a standard here, so the 525-575 seems good.
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Old 08-08-2018, 03:24 PM   #3
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Re: 5/10 cold 4! sizing?

My cold 4b's when OOP to the 3bettor are usually 2.6-2.8x the 3bet total. I think we can reasonably use the high end of that, and size our 4bet to $475-500. Our stack depth isn't necessarily as important IMO, as this pot is swelling at an extreme rate and we're putting in 20% of effective stacks pre.

We also get a nice risk/reward on our bluffs. If we make it 500, we're risking 490 to win 280 out in the middle, which isn't too bad of a deal, actually pretty similar to the 175 BTN risked to win 105 with his squeeze.
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Old 08-11-2018, 02:42 AM   #4
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Re: 5/10 cold 4! sizing?

I was thinking along the same lines as Jarretman. Before seeing his comment, I was thinking 550 to 600, which is pretty close. If he calls SPR will be about 2 to 1 which is excellent for aces.

I'm totally guessing on your last question, but I'll say Villain shoves 70% and calls 30% with AA.

edit: I misread, I thought you were saying the chance BU calls vs. your 4-bet with AA. If UTG+2 5-bets to say 1250, I think Villain will shove AA pretty close to 100% of the time.

re-edit: I actually was probably correct the first time. "call vs 5 bet" is probably meant as "call or 5 bet".

Last edited by TheGodson; 08-11-2018 at 02:54 AM.
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Old 08-12-2018, 05:20 AM   #5
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Re: 5/10 cold 4! sizing?

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I was thinking along the same lines as Jarretman. Before seeing his comment, I was thinking 550 to 600, which is pretty close. If he calls SPR will be about 2 to 1 which is excellent for aces.

I'm totally guessing on your last question, but I'll say Villain shoves 70% and calls 30% with AA.

edit: I misread, I thought you were saying the chance BU calls vs. your 4-bet with AA. If UTG+2 5-bets to say 1250, I think Villain will shove AA pretty close to 100% of the time.

re-edit: I actually was probably correct the first time. "call vs 5 bet" is probably meant as "call or 5 bet".
Yeah you were right the first time. The main reason i asked this question is because I have heard that at least some players dont have a 5 betting range, because its better to have an uncapped calling range. Seems especially true facing a cold 4 bet. However I 4 bet QQ recently and got near min 5 bet by a pro, had no idea how often he would be bluffing, or if it was only AA or what.
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Old 08-12-2018, 10:38 AM   #6
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Re: 5/10 cold 4! sizing?

Not having a 5bet range is a product of the increasing narrowness of ranges as the raises happen so in very tight preflop raise re-raise spots like SB vs UTG if CO 3bets and UTG 4bets and you're 300bb deep you're really only getting in aces pre (there's some other considerations as well but this is the main factor) so when you 5bet you're basically saying "hey look at me I have aces and maybe occasionally a bluff but mostly I just have aces" so it makes sense to not have a 5bet range and only continue vs the 4bet as a call from a theory standpoint.

However, in looser spots, like SB vs BB, SB vs BTN it makes sense to have a 5betting range even deep because the ranges aren't so narrow that you're only comfortable getting in AA pre and you can construct your continue range(s) differently.

Also, vs players who are maniacs or super aggro 4bettors it makes sense to have a 5bet range as well.
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Old 08-12-2018, 09:32 PM   #7
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Diamond Re: 5/10 cold 4! sizing?

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Originally Posted by Tomark View Post
Yeah you were right the first time. The main reason i asked this question is because I have heard that at least some players dont have a 5 betting range, because its better to have an uncapped calling range. Seems especially true facing a cold 4 bet. However I 4 bet QQ recently and got near min 5 bet by a pro, had no idea how often he would be bluffing, or if it was only AA or what.

If you have QQ in your original problem and get min 5-bet I think you can put a typical pro on a range of mostly QQ+, AK, and a few suited bluffs (mostly Axs). Your probably about 40%ish or better so I think a call would be appropriate. AK, KK, and QQ are probably more likely to flat so it may be a bit more AA heavy.

At the end of the day it is largely going to depend on your specific opponent, but I don't think it is usually a mistake to call there.
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Old 08-13-2018, 07:41 AM   #8
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Re: 5/10 cold 4! sizing?

Jarretman i think it was probably UTG+1 or +2 raise vs btn 3 bet, but he may well think im a maniac. I do think given the sizing he cant think im folding much.

Thegodsun. Yeah i called figuring that itd be a strong enough call that AK/SCs would shut down OTF if they missed, but flop came 865ss and he open shipped for 1.5x pot, obviously like every SC in the deck flopped well enough to do that so it was an easy fold but didnt teach me much about his range.

My general experience in my short time at 5/T seems to be that even the better 5/T players 4 bet bluff way too rarely, which is why most good 5/T players 3 bet way too often since it doesnt get punished much. As such I think people give a lot of credit to 4 bets and also maybe dont 5 bet bluff.
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Old 08-14-2018, 09:05 PM   #9
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Re: 5/10 cold 4! sizing?

Hold on you called and x:f flop am I reading this right?
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Old 08-16-2018, 12:14 PM   #10
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Re: 5/10 cold 4! sizing?

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Originally Posted by lolposting2016 View Post
Hold on you called and x:f flop am I reading this right?
Hold on you came into an advice forum and asked a demeaning rhetorical question and then gave no advice, am i reading this right?
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Old 08-16-2018, 12:41 PM   #11
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Re: 5/10 cold 4! sizing?

There was some advice sprinkled in there. But you played the hand very bad. The thing that was really bad was ur thoughts of the flop being an easy fold. Also pf cold call the 3b is rly bad as well. Gl tho!
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Old 08-16-2018, 07:47 PM   #12
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Re: 5/10 cold 4! sizing?

Id love to hear your advice if you can muster an adult sentence about it. What that would require would be

1) give insight as to WHY you think something, not just your conclusion. Hand ranges maybe?
2) spell check, make sure your sentences actually make sense, dont give advice on a bad cold call on a 3 bet when there isnt a cold call OR a call of a 3 bet in EITHER hand posted
3) dont insult peoples intelligence, people are here to learn not to get trolled by you. I posted this because I am new to higher stakes where there is far more aggressive preflop action and I am not experienced with ranges that people have. I am more than willing to take advice, but I am not here for you to measure your dick against.

Honestly you have 1250 posts, primarily in strategy forums, you ought to know this.
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Old 08-16-2018, 08:28 PM   #13
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Re: 5/10 cold 4! sizing?

Ok fine
Pf) you want to have a 4b range. Aa is the main hand for 4b. Spr/position/ are the main two factors in play here
Cold calling 3bs overall isn’t really a thing/Most good players play this spot as a pure 4b/f
Flop) his range is mostly just overpairs which you obviously crush. Way less sc than you think here. If he happens to have 2p here well then he’s just gonna have to win your $.
It’s really really bad to fold aa when he has kk or qq which is easily the most frequent hand you run into. Gl
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Old 08-17-2018, 05:48 AM   #14
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Re: 5/10 cold 4! sizing?

If you are correct about him giving up on his bluffs post flop then folding QQ is correct. In my experience a lot of players continue betting with their bluffs after 5-betting.

I think my game plan in this spot would be to call it off on any board where there is no ace or king. On the flip side, if you are holding AK you do the opposite. This works out very smoothly as you have coverage for both board types and you have a mixture of calls and folds for each.

The only other board that I might fold QQ is if the board comes monotone and you don't hold any of that suit.

With SPR of less than 2, you can be pretty comfortable stacking off your over pairs and most of the time it wont be a mistake to do so.
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Old 08-17-2018, 06:41 AM   #15
Tomark
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Re: 5/10 cold 4! sizing?

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Originally Posted by lolposting2016 View Post
Ok fine
Pf) you want to have a 4b range. Aa is the main hand for 4b. Spr/position/ are the main two factors in play here
Cold calling 3bs overall isnít really a thing/Most good players play this spot as a pure 4b/f
Flop) his range is mostly just overpairs which you obviously crush. Way less sc than you think here. If he happens to have 2p here well then heís just gonna have to win your $.
Itís really really bad to fold aa when he has kk or qq which is easily the most frequent hand you run into. Gl
So I have had 2 hands I posted here.

In OP i had AA, which i cold 4 bet (and got called). I didnt really go into postflop because I butchered it pre. I bet to $400 so he probably called with ATC cuz i went too cheap. I agreeus

in 2nd post, I raised, a pro V 3 bet (seemingly wide), i 4 bet with QQ, and then he near min 5 bet me, and i was completely lost as to his range, called, and then x/f on an 865 2 tone flop when he shipped for 1.5x pot. its possible i shouldve just folded pre, or called post, I have no idea what his 5 betting range is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGodson View Post
If you are correct about him giving up on his bluffs post flop then folding QQ is correct. In my experience a lot of players continue betting with their bluffs after 5-betting.

I think my game plan in this spot would be to call it off on any board where there is no ace or king. On the flip side, if you are holding AK you do the opposite. This works out very smoothly as you have coverage for both board types and you have a mixture of calls and folds for each.

The only other board that I might fold QQ is if the board comes monotone and you don't hold any of that suit.

With SPR of less than 2, you can be pretty comfortable stacking off your over pairs and most of the time it wont be a mistake to do so.

I have no reason to think he gives up on bluffs postflop except how Id imagine that I would be bluff 5 betting, since ive never done it or had it done to me (unless this was a bluff), so it was pure speculation mostly because i figure he puts me on AA/KK and on me not folding an 865 flop even close to often enough.

One thought I do have is maybe it would make way more sense for him to have suited aces as his bluffs for the blockers since he probably isnt too worried about playability, plus the A is good against KK. that would mean his semibluff ships would be 1 pair and FDs and OESD with A7, so id be in much better shape.

If V doesnt give up on bluffs post, im not sure i should even be calling the 5. The whole situation makes me wish i had just cold called the 3...
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Old 08-17-2018, 07:48 AM   #16
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Re: 5/10 cold 4! sizing?

What I've seen from a lot of players who typically cold call 3-bets, do so with a range resembling QQ-99, AK, and AQs. Give or take a few of those hands. It probably isn't too big of a mistake if it is one, but I'm not really an advocate for cold calling for a few reasons.

-Having a capped range on a lot of boards.
-You give the original bettor odds to call with a lot of hands.
-Original bettor could 4-bet putting you in a tough spot
-Complicates your game

In this particular spot you'd also be out of position which would suck all the more.

That beings said, there are probably players who can successfully navigate with this kind of strategy. I think it is a lot easier (possibly better) to play 4-bet or fold though.
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