Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-10-2018, 08:51 PM   #1
ABCforME
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 47
5/10 cheesy river donk

Game is in Rhode Island. My image is new to 5/10, scared money, tilted. I am currently running transparent bluffs that have been called down in 200ish size pots. The typical everyone checks, I stab, someone calls me with 3rd pair shenanigans you get away with at 2/5 but not 5/10.

Preflop I have $800 everyone else is at roughly $1k.

V1 limps under the gun. He is very tight preflop but barrels down with large sizings effectively with both value and bluffs using stack leverage points well. He is actually very hard to read/not scared money and shows up at 5 am to take advantage of tired gamblers, which shows his high thinking process. While rarely caught bluffing he definitely barrels at a very high frequency. He also is the type to notice and adjust to players tendencies and he has caught me barreling off tiltedly multiple times when checked to in previous sessions. E.g. with QQ on Ace high boards checking to me on the button. I have A5 offsuit and call on button.

Flop AK5ss

V2 is a tightish but somewhat recreational Indian dude who usually short stacks. Not a guy to run ridiculous bluffs but rather to bluff catch. He Leads out for 30. V1 snap raises and announces "100." I flat on button interpreting this as an AQ/AJ/A10 type hand and waiting for a clean turn to jam over. V2 flats. Roughly $380 in pot coming to turn.

Turn 4s. Quick check from both players to me. I bet 185 thinking V1 and V2 would at least not immediately snap check it to me with a flush. However V1 knows I will bet when checked to in these spots at near 100% frequency. Only V1 calls and fairly quickly.

River 4c ($755). Villian leads out 400 putting me all in. I tank looking for a read and he clearly seems to be trying to act out weakness/nervousness. I haven't played with him enough to know if he can level that.

It seems to me that A. He has a flush or AK or a boat somehow and is cheesily donking me all in. If he had just an ace he would most likely bluff catch. On the other hand he could be trying to get me off a chop/value betting two pair with a king? The river donk line just really threw me off as a flush having recently been stacked in similar fashion by another thinking player with the call down then river donk.

Last edited by ABCforME; 03-10-2018 at 09:12 PM.
ABCforME is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-10-2018, 10:45 PM   #2
pgcounty
veteran
 
pgcounty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: utg+1
Posts: 3,036
Re: 5/10 cheesy river donk

I'm guessing V2 is a blind? No mention of him until after the flop

Preflop is weird all around.

If the guy is tricky good like you say, why are you voluntarily putting money in the pot with a **** hand?

Keep posting hands and try to start thinking about ranges instead of cards/hands.

I don't have much to add other than you should probably just raise the flop.

If you get 3 bet, I don't know what I'd think, because I wouldn't be in this spot.

Preflop UTG limps from "good" players really confuse me.
pgcounty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2018, 12:20 AM   #3
AllTheCheese
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AllTheCheese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Sad life; won't change
Posts: 11,081
Re: 5/10 cheesy river donk

It helps to know which cards are spades here. A board of AsKs5d is quite different from AdKs5s.

Also how is it $380 ott when there are two limpers and three players put in $100 otf? Would be $335 without rake.

Turn bet is very bad. When it goes bet, raise, cold call, call in a limped pot on AK5 with two spades, it seems likely that at least one person holds suited spades. Even in the instance where your opponents both hold Ax, they can comfortably let it go ott when you bet because it looks like YOU are the one with two spades.

As for the river, this is a fold. A tight player who limps UTG can have Aces, Kings, Fives, and your history may have led him to take a weird line with a flush. It makes little sense for him to have a hand worse than yours that he can turn into a bluff on this card unless your description of him as a tight solid player is wrong.
AllTheCheese is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2018, 01:19 AM   #4
ABCforME
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 47
Re: 5/10 cheesy river donk

Is betting to either deny equity from or get value from an AxJs type hand given my at the time physical and timing tells read that both players did not have a flush not the best approach? Should I really put V1 on 55/AK/KK/AA because he limped utg and is tight? This is live poker and he has been observed playing A10/AJ type hands as well.

If the river blanks and I get one call from V1 who ostensibly thinks I am turning a small ace into a bluff on the turn given my 100% bet when checked to image, can I jam the rest of my stack in for value on river and get bluffcatch paid?

And the fact that I can read V2 as shoving flushes only over my turn bet, also give me no reason not to go ahead and bet for value/protection?

And if I am being trapped by a set or higher 2 pair or flush from V1 extremely creatively does betting the turn also save me a river bluff catching bet I'm going to spend anyway?

I think most interesting and relevant is the question of how many highly thinking, nerdish older 5/10 TAG image players are capable of betting me off a chop on the river? Sizing me up as scared money perhaps and realizing they are going to call me on the river anyways so they might as well try to win the pot outright.

I haven't observed this player enough to know specifically for him but suspect there are plenty of older 5/10 guys out there who try to bet people off chops. It also seems to be a moment when ego comes out for some and I constantly seem to observe the big bluffs from various 2/5 and 5/10 players randomly come out on chop boards.

Last edited by ABCforME; 03-11-2018 at 01:30 AM.
ABCforME is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-11-2018, 03:59 AM   #5
AllTheCheese
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AllTheCheese's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Sad life; won't change
Posts: 11,081
Re: 5/10 cheesy river donk

What about my questions? (What was the flop specifically and why is the pot $380?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ABCforME View Post
Is betting to either deny equity from or get value from an AxJs type hand given my at the time physical and timing tells read that both players did not have a flush not the best approach?
No. Maybe you are the sickest live reader of all time or these are the biggest tell boxes, but in the majority of real life cases, the player actually has little idea whether his opponents have a flush or not (even if he thinks he has a read).

In terms of denying equity, there are very few combos of AX with one spade V1 can have. Two combos each of AQs, AJs, and ATs, and that's it unless he really sucks. You can shut non-spade AJ type hands out of the pot, but they only have 6 outs to beat you and you're better off trying to extract value from them otr after checking back. Most of the time your turn bet is a donation for your opponents' better hands.

Quote:
Should I really put V1 on 55/AK/KK/AA because he limped utg and is tight? This is live poker and he has been observed playing A10/AJ type hands as well.
You should certainly have boats in his range and they should be heavily weighted since his line makes perfect sense for them in a way that it does not make much sense for other hands.

Quote:
If the river blanks and I get one call from V1 who ostensibly thinks I am turning a small ace into a bluff on the turn given my 100% bet when checked to image, can I jam the rest of my stack in for value on river and get bluffcatch paid?
Only you can know. A competent player in your seat does not show up with Ah6h as it is a clear fold otf. You're doing a weird thing in this thread where you're asking the forum given that you play a flawed strategy of cold calling top-pair no kicker otf and always betting when checked to, how should one think about the hand? Well, hard to say, but really you shouldn't play that strategy.

Quote:
And if I am being trapped by a set or higher 2 pair or flush from V1 extremely creatively does betting the turn also save me a river bluff catching bet I'm going to spend anyway?
This is not a creative line with a set or a hand like JsTs, Js9s, QsTs, QsJs.

I also don't think the question of bluffing you off a chop makes any sense at all.

ETA: Taking a step back, big picture here, you're trying to make the case there is a good likelihood that a "tight" player is putting almost a full stack in a limped pot on a three flush board with a one-pair hand hoping he can occasionally fold out a chop. Maybe this is totally reasonable in your game, but it's not in most.

Last edited by AllTheCheese; 03-11-2018 at 04:22 AM.
AllTheCheese is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2018, 03:43 AM   #6
jdr0317
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 5,954
Re: 5/10 cheesy river donk

Preflop is terrible. Turn is an easy check back. Like what bluffs could you possibly have here, absent of your flop continuing strategy being awful and including hands like QsJx?

River is a trivial fold. You're near the bottom of your range in a spot where you have a lot of good hands (55, flushes). Plus he'd have to be turning like AxQs into a bluff, which is something people don't do.

Why are you playing on short $ and tilted? That's suboptimal whether you're trying to win or not.
jdr0317 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ę 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online