Villain 30ish black guy - plays a lot of hands, including limp calling, but nothing too crazy post flop

Hero raising a lot pre - esp in position - and TAGish image overall

$400 effective

Multilple limpers, hero raises to 20 on the button with AA , gets 5 callers

Flop(95) T74

Checked to hero, who bets 60, all fold except villain who calls in HJ

Turn (215) K

So with 320 behind with a 215 pot, what's best line here?

Bigger pre if you had 5 limpers. Make it at least $25, and at many tables I'd go more like $35 and hope it looks like you're just trying to buy it.

On the flop, I would go closer to a PSB, and it would probably be a B/F, though there are combo-draws that could be looking to c/r.

AP, I assume V checks again? I go about $150.

edit: yes, Villain checks the turn

$110. $25-$30 pre.

if we bet 110+ on the turn, are we still calling all rivers, even a club?

anyone like a turn jam?

No, and I'm folding to a bet or checking back on club rivers.

Im raising more pre, given all the limpers. Probably $30.

Otf, i think you're giving pretty good odds to draw so maybe make that a bit more too, closer to $85-$90

Ott, after villain checks id go $135-$150.

We've put in lil over half our stack at this point so Id have trouble folding after this point, even a (barf) club river :-/

:-) Oh the leaks I have!!! It's making so much sense.

I really need to do more work in understanding where we've overcommitted ourselves vs when we can comfortably fold.

I'm not a huge believer in the old school commitment levels. As I've said before when looking at making a call, it's not about how much we've put in to the pot, it's about whether we have enough equity. On a club river, we basically beat only super-brazen bluffs. Those are very rare at LLSNL and especially on super-connected boards.

If we go $150, get called, a club river comes and V shoves, we'll be looking at the idea of paying $170 of what would be a $855 pot. V called two barrels on a three-flush board and shoved when the 4th club came and the amount left means that he should think he has no FE. His range is like 90% AcX here, and most that isn't is a smaller flush, or at worst a set, turning itself into a bluff. So sure, we only need to be good 20% of the time in that case, but we never are. We're lucky if we're good 3% of the time, imo.

I agree with Garick about the commitment threshold. It's a good heuristic, but more applicable when playing vs balanced players/ranges, where we need to worry more about being exploited and less about exploiting others.

No one advocating to just give up on this one ?? That is a disgusting flop for AA, and it being multiway I would lead towards checking behind the flop and re-evaluating the turn , against capable Opponents and in a multiway situation any bets I make would be betfold lines and I feel I could only get 1 street of value here and that's only if it goes brick brick

Yeah I agree, small hand = small pot for me, especially on these multi way dangerous boards. I don't get why everybody is so eager to stick all their chips in here. I'm just curious what hands we're getting value from besides the bare Ac, Tx w/ a club, and the Kc. Nobody probably has a big pair because of the action preflop, so I'd say when you stick all your money in you are going to very unhappy with the result most of the time.

First, I didn't advocate getting it in.

Second, that is a LOT of combos to get value from. Meanwhile, a small flush is somewhat unlikely, as it would probably have raised flop, afraid that another club would kill his hand or his action. And if he c/c turn, that makes it even more unlikely. Really the only thing we're afraid is slowplaying us here is the flopped nut flush. Still, there's a reason I advocated b/f.

Im definitely checking this flop. 100% against this many people.

+1

I would go even further, and saying that betting this flop with red aces with 4-5 callers is spew and its pretty certain you have a leak that consists of betting flops/turns multiway with too weak of a range when having multiple callers/very multiway.

Bet/folding is not a good line either, because growing this pot by insisting to put more money in it will lead to a myriad of difficult/uncomfortable situations on turns and rivers with a hand that basically have zero cards to improve on.

Betting 2 thirds pot here (60 into 90 ish) 6 ways is just painful to read to be honest.

Edit: dont get me started on the biggest leak in the modern era these days in my opinion- C betting way too much. Many players have seen some coaching video or youtube video saying that they should C-bet, then they miss the nuances and proceed to C-bet flop very close to 100 percent after they open pre.

In general, the tighter people are preflop, the higher their Cbet percentage is...and thats not a good thing.

Why is that not a good thing? The tighter you are pre (the stronger your range is), the more often you're going to have a strong hand after the flop, warranting a higher cbet frequency.

Obv the opposite of being wide pre, where you should cbet less (in theory) in order for your cbet range to not be too weak/exploitable.

A looser (that's looser....not loser) preflop raiser, like me, raises enough hands that I have plenty of opportunities to play big pots, small pots, medium pots. I check and give up plenty. I check and then raise plenty. I have a wide range and can hit flops that people dont expect. I can also toss AA in the muck without a second thought on a flop like this because I will be raising another hand very soon and will have another opportunity.

Tight preflop raisers, dont get into anywhere near as many hands where they are the aggressor. They tend to have a sense of ownership of the pot when they raise premiums hands, before the flop even comes down. They've been waiting a long time for these premiums and they dont give up easily. This leads to overplaying and a need to CBet almost every flop.

So I guess they should be cbetting a higher percentage than I should be, but what I meant to say was they have a tendency to not realize (or not be able to accept the fact) that they shouldnt be cbetting a flop like this one.

I see your point, but as you alluded to, playing loose pre allows you to give up more often postflop. And you have to because you're range is looser.

A tighter range pre, will generally make a higher % of strong hands postflop, leading to more bets postflop.

I think what you're trying to say is that tight ranges pre often cbet too much on boards that miss their range, because they don't differentiate how certain flop textures hit (or miss) their range. I would agree if that's what you meant. I also agree hat tight players get married to their hands more often, even when conditions get bad for them.

I edited in my last sentence as you were posting.

this is what dominates my thinking on this flop - I'd even put Qc in there - that's plenty of worse hands calling imo - and with position OTB where I raise a ton, I like betting.

Amen to the bolded.

I agree we shouldn't be betting often into 5 people, but what would your betting range look like here? Are you only betting flopped flushes + some Ac, Kc combos as bluffs?

Sets and overpairs with a club seem to be good hands to check back since it would suck to get raised and they block some of the combos we get value from. If we are going to have a bet/fold range, non club QQ-AA seems like good hands to do so with. And just because we bet the flop doesn't mean we have to stuff the rest of our chips in there, if we get HU and try to get to SD, that doesn't seem too bad to me.

Agreed. You can still cbet this flop in the hopes of picking up dead money and then give up at that point to most aggression. If nobody has the Ac or anything better than 1p on the flop, it's going to fold around to a pot-sized bet and would be +EV.

+1

I don't see how we're not getting value from worse hands on this flop.