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5/10/25 wide ranges and massive flop sizing 5/10/25 wide ranges and massive flop sizing

09-24-2020 , 10:03 AM
This was played in a Texas club game. Mandatory $25 straddle is on.

Villain is a LAG reg in this game; he's a strong winning player. He 3bets liberally. He's very aggressive and capable of running large bluffs -- he might be overbluffing in spots, but I'm not sure.

I typically play 1/3 and sometimes 5/5. This is maybe my 3rd time playing this stake. Villain knows I usually play lower stakes. Villain might think I'm nervous to play these stakes, although it isn't true.

Villain starts with $2.5k, I cover.

Action folds to hero in the SB, and hero opens to $100 with 6 5. Villain 3bets in BB to $275. Straddle folds. Hero calls.

Flop: T 5 3 (pot: $575)

Hero checks, Villain bets $400, Hero calls.

Turn: J T 5 3 (pot: $1375)

Hero checks, Villain bets $525 (leaving himself $1300 behind), Hero folds.

My question is, how to react to the flop sizing which surprised me? It seems unlikely that we are not going to be facing multiple barrels when Villain uses this sizing. However, this is one of my best 5x and folding flop would be exploitable. Turn seems like an easy decision.

If we pick up additional equity, with a 4 or a club, can we be justified to check-raise turn all in, or would that be a mistake given the massive flop sizing?

How wide can I open from the SB in a 3-blind format? I would probably open JTo at the lower end of my range. Is that too loose? Perhaps with a LAG on my left, I should tighten up?

More generally, how to combat this approach where Villain uses a puny preflop sizing, so that we enter the flop with a very wide range, and then bombs the flop for near pot? Do we just look to MDF and call flop with our best 50% of hands? Or, is this line typically underbluffed, and we should look to fold out all but our top pair or better?

Thanks for any comments.

Last edited by ChaosInEquilibrium; 09-24-2020 at 10:21 AM.
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09-25-2020 , 03:17 PM
Pretty sure it's a fold pre after facing the 3bet and him being potentially wider than normal might slightly influence that but its arguable whether that makes 65s play better or worse oop...

Flop there might be some raising with your combo otherwise the hand seems ok
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09-25-2020 , 05:01 PM
1) On the metagame: you said he thinks you are nervous and might be playing scared money, in this case I would aggresse you/float a lot being a LAG with hands that flop well or even connectors or Q5s+/KXs+ preflop IP vs you in SB.

2) 56s has good playability as aggressor or caller IP

3) high SPR favor 56s to realize equity

based on 1) 2) 3); I would not raise pre.

Should be mostly a fold but in live game usually ppls pay off easier so you should perhaps complete.

As you chose to raise preflop; once he 3bet you; with a SPR of 4 HU OOP; fold > call > raise because it's super hard to realize your equity.

As you called the 3bet on the flop we see a lot of backdoor but vs this bet sizing; he could also overbet shove all in turn even if you pick up an oesd or FD; I am not sure u have tons of fold equity vs a linear 3bet range

I think there are cheaper spots to realize your equity
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09-27-2020 , 06:18 PM
Thanks for the comments.

I take it that the preflop call of the 3-bet is a mistake. The original preflop open is okay, if I understand Jarretman correctly. But perhaps it's marginal, and due to postflop leaks it might be slightly losing for me.

I plan to play this game regularly, and, my main issue in improving/study is that I don't have access to preflop ranges for a 3-blind game. Can either of you recommend a source for this? Is my best option to purchase Monkersolver and run sims on a high-end desktop?

My intuition is that I should be opening from the SB somewhere between HJ and CO ranges in a standard 2-blind game. That would put hands like QJo, 65s, and 55 as my cusp marginal opens.
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09-28-2020 , 06:48 PM
Quit trying to prove you aren’t scared and just play solid poker. Not blasting with 6-high is a good place to start. This hand is much more profitable in position.
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09-28-2020 , 09:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk
Quit trying to prove you aren’t scared and just play solid poker. Not blasting with 6-high is a good place to start. This hand is much more profitable in position.
Is this a criticism of the RFI? Or is this a criticism of the call to 3-bet which I agree is a leak?
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09-29-2020 , 05:14 PM
Both. This isn’t like a BTN open where you’ll be IP. This hand is so much harder to play OOP.

Also, a little fear can be a good thing. It helps people survive.
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09-29-2020 , 07:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk
Both. This isn’t like a BTN open where you’ll be IP. This hand is so much harder to play OOP.

Also, a little fear can be a good thing. It helps people survive.
I would compare it more to a HJ open in a standard 2-blind game. HJ faces 2 uncapped ranges to his left and 4 uncapped ranges overall. SB in a straddled pot faces 2 uncapped ranges to his left and 2 uncapped ranges overall. Given the fact SB faces less opposition in this configuration than HJ, it would stand to reason that SB is allowed to open wider than a standard HJ range. That put my estimate of allowed RFI between a HJ and CO range (20-25%). Now 65s is a standard open from HJ.

Literally everyone who I’ve shared this hand with has criticized the RFI, but nobody has provided an explanation. I’m very hardheaded on following popular wisdom.

This hand is tempting me to shell out cash for a desktop rig that can run Monkersolver in 3way preflop spots. Unfortunately that will be at least a $3000 investment, as far as I can tell. Apparently Monker preflop requires at least 256GB of ram.
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09-30-2020 , 06:57 PM
I have 56s 100 straddle deep from SB as a 80% raise, 20% limp. If you want to play raise only then it's fine as a pure raise (but yes near the bottom)
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10-01-2020 , 07:59 AM
56s is a super standard sb rfi, and any suggestion otherwise is lol, but not as much lol as folding it to less than 3x 3bet especially if the straddle has folded and your closing the action. Considering doing so is absurd. If you fold either of these spots then just quit poker or just drop your money off at the center of the table for a nice splash pot when you feel like playing and walk away.

BB is incentivized to 3b or fold similar to sb in a standard blinds btn open so think along those lines and play accordingly.

Flop play is standard in my view. Depending on how bb builds his ranges and strats his large sizing can be a thing, and you don't really have any option other than calling.

Villains turn play is absurd and should have been an auto call, or possibly even a jam could be considered in my view, because of what villain has to be doing with his ranges to down bet the turn. No part of his value range captures more EV on that turn with that bet other than leaving a bit more behind to bluff river.

Last edited by GreatBigRedOne; 10-01-2020 at 08:03 AM. Reason: poor grammar
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10-01-2020 , 05:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatBigRedOne
56s is a super standard sb rfi, and any suggestion otherwise is lol, but not as much lol as folding it to less than 3x 3bet especially if the straddle has folded and your closing the action. Considering doing so is absurd. If you fold either of these spots then just quit poker or just drop your money off at the center of the table for a nice splash pot when you feel like playing and walk away.

BB is incentivized to 3b or fold similar to sb in a standard blinds btn open so think along those lines and play accordingly.
No, and no.

BB v SB in straddle game is a lot different than SB v BTN in normal 2 blind game. BB is in position vs the original raiser which greatly changes the profitability of his just calls pre. Also, the BB has a better price to call than in a 2 blind game (depending on raise size of course, but assuming raise size is the same). Therefore in order to not lose EV, BB v SB has a flatting range and 3betting range (I have 3bet 8.5% and call 15.6%), whereas SB v BTN is fine with just a 3betting range and doesn't really lose EV.

I have 65s as a pure fold vs 3x 3bet after we open 3.5x; in the hand we opened 4x and got a 2.75x open... I imagine it's still a fold.
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10-03-2020 , 04:17 PM
Good posts Jarrett. I’d have guessed it’s a pure defend vs the 2.75
Another question is if 65s even makes it into a 4x range pf
I think just making it 65 or even just min raise to 50/55 or whatever is doing way better than just trying to fit 65s into the 4x range.
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10-03-2020 , 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lolposting2016
Good posts Jarrett. I’d have guessed it’s a pure defend vs the 2.75
Another question is if 65s even makes it into a 4x range pf
I think just making it 65 or even just min raise to 50/55 or whatever is doing way better than just trying to fit 65s into the 4x range.
Yea good question. I imagine if we have the choice of 4x/limp/fold it would never 4x with 65s. Maybe it would 4x sometimes if we have the choice of 4x/fold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarretman
No, and no.

BB v SB in straddle game is a lot different than SB v BTN in normal 2 blind game. BB is in position vs the original raiser which greatly changes the profitability of his just calls pre. Also, the BB has a better price to call than in a 2 blind game (depending on raise size of course, but assuming raise size is the same). Therefore in order to not lose EV, BB v SB has a flatting range and 3betting range (I have 3bet 8.5% and call 15.6%), whereas SB v BTN is fine with just a 3betting range and doesn't really lose EV.

I have 65s as a pure fold vs 3x 3bet after we open 3.5x; in the hand we opened 4x and got a 2.75x open... I imagine it's still a fold.
The bolded part is wrong btw I was thinking vs BTN open in both cases for some reason, vs SB 3 blind game our price in bb is same as vs BTN open assuming same raise size. It's mainly a function of the fact we have relative IP vs the opener, which matters a lot.
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10-06-2020 , 06:16 AM
56s is hard to play headsup with no position
I will 4bet as bluff or fold to 3bet, never call 3bet here
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