Villain is a good pro who is able to switch up from LAG to TAG depending on table dynamics, good hand reader

a round of straddles is agreed to, 9 handed, folds around to hero on the SB with 2200, covered by both blinds

hero is known as a tricky player, probably has some respect around the table, i remember things that most people don't and use them in my game.
for example, a couple weeks back, I called a raise with something something, blind defended, flop was ace rag rag rainbow, he bet, i folded, bb called, stuff happened that i actually don't recall, when the hand was said and done, he showed down AQ

we talked about the hand and he was saying that he didn't have to bet the flop, I said i would always bet the flop with an ace but the reason was because i think a c-bet takes it down a lot but i didn't tell him that, which got me thinking to my c-bet% which is probably higher than optimum but w/e

so here i go switching up

hero dealt KJ

raise to 75, BB calls, villain flats from the straddle

(225)
J56

hero checks, villain bets 150, hero calls

(525)

8

hero checks, villain bets 350

anyone going down this rabbit hole?

I do this fairly often and its shocking how much extra money I make by checking the flop with TP or an overpair (as the preflop raiser) against the right people. People just refuse to believe you have anything when you check that flop.

If he has a hand that beats you he was going to call those similar bet amounts anyway, but when you check he will bet those same amounts with much weaker hands (sometimes with total air).

Obviously you should do it against passive players or calling stations.

How can we do anything else but call?

Call. I would have just bet the flop.

Betting flop generally but ok with a calldown.

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5/10/25 vs a good pro is definitely not LLSNL. I'd recommend posting this in Mid-Stakes.

Don't you know it's against the rules to check the flop with top pair decent kicker!?!? CHECK CHECK CHECK, HE TRAP ME!

As for op, I'm probably going one more street, half expecting to regret it. Nothing to do at this point but play pot control. You're getting what you wanted. Think I'm reading 2200 effective starting stacks, so nothing's out of control yet. I'd hope to instacall the 350. And if i hesitated, then I'd consider minraising it because that's what i should've done on the flop. Pretty hard to read this as is specifically because of how you played it. Which is probably the only lesson to learn.

I'll share a nightmare anecdote. I did almost this exact thing with maybe 75% the stacks. Seriously identical scenarios. Even the straddle, which influenced my read on his read of my pfr. I flatted turn. Rivered a third jack (mine were Qs but jacks for your story). Figured **** it, if he's boated he's boated. Had to be aces or kings, right? I got cute and fired 200 into him. He shipped it. Again, it's what I was going for wasn't it? I tanked til the table got mad. Then gave my entire stack to the trips w/ ace kicker.

Yeah it hurts. You could fold to the 350 and avoid disasters like mine but then why were you playing the hand this way to begin with? Do you just fold every time the play goes a little squirrelly? Does it only work if he checks back the turn? As played, call, check the river, and decide what your threshold is. There might not be a good threshold. I think even AJ checks back the river a ton. Best case, you let a weaker jack buy 2 cards.

Fold pre. HH is confusing because you’re talking about hero like it’s someone else.

Definitely not folding pre. This hand is way too strong to fold in a blind battle.

It should be fine to check a lot of your top pairs after getting called twice pre and being OOP. I might bet J8-JT for equity denial, but KJ hates slightly fewer turns.

It's a clear as day turn call. River can probably be check/folded since it will be close to the bottom of our range. This might be a good combo to check/shove diamond rivers. Remember that the flop was multi-way and we called not closing the action.

With underrepped TP2K I feel like we need to call again on the turn. We don't have much stronger in this particular line plus if V remembers you saying you always cbet top pair he can be betting worse Top pairs here.

Call turn and evaluate river?

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies...

$2200 does not seem like low stakes to me, so it's hard to identify with OP. If the Mods want LLSNL to have 5/10/25 discussions within, whatever. JMO.

"..a round of straddles is agreed to, 9 handed, folds around to hero on the SB with 2200, covered by both blinds

hero is known as a tricky player, probably has some respect around the table, i remember things that most people don't and use them in my game.
for example, a couple weeks back, I called a raise with something something, blind defended, flop was ace rag rag rainbow, he bet, i folded, bb called, stuff happened that i actually don't recall, when the hand was said and done, he showed down AQ..."

Playing KJo OOP vs a good pro sounds extremely profitable.

Imagine posting a 5/10/25 hand in this bad nit forum. No one here has played this.

it's exactly the same rules as 1/2, feel free to comment

what is our plan for the river?

If you're trying to give the best practical advice, and you think that is the reason this is a fold pre, then it would be even better advice to rack up pre. If the game is so tough you don't think you can open this hand then seriously just don't play.

The best theoretical play is to raise. I want to play a top 10-15% hand against two opponents who haven't VPIP'ed.

I think cbetting does better for our overall range and plans but whatever. If you're gonna check flop for deception and pot control it's typically to call down. There are plenty of draws still so turn is a call. River is pretty dependant on what the card is and sizings and stuff. Hard to say what this guy thinks of you and how he plays. If he's a winning player at these stakes then he should know it's possible you can check back top pair and over pair hands here and won't be bluffing as frequently. Or he could know you check back 1 pair hands here and try and put you to the test. I know part of your check back plan includes possible checked streets leading to smaller pots and easier call downs. When were bet into twice like this I think we need to call down more since it's hard and almost impossible to have better than 1 pair here vs a thinking player.

The best theoretical play is to raise. However, you then still have to play the rest of the hand OOP vs someone you described as a good pro. Playing RIO hands OOP vs solid players isn’t where you make your money. Playing hands IP vs a bunch of idiots that want to play KJo OOP is where you make your money.

In my limited 5/10 experience, this is usually value-town and hate to lose 100BB here OOP. I bet the flop usually. As played, I am a nit. I would fold the turn.

don't go setting traps with hands as weak as KJ on Jxx if you don't intend to call this down against a known OOL opponent for meta/gameflow reasons.

as played b/f turn, but I dislike the check on the flop, you've muddied the waters.

as for the open pre, it's line ball, but i doubt i'd be raising KJ OOP into a seasoned pro. could get behind just completing to 25 or even simply folding pre. from the stacks-in spots I saw at a short stint on a wild 2/5 last night, the second best hand had KJo 3 out of 5 times. (e.g. i raise ATs UTG (1500), 1/2pot cbet KQxr into two random ranges, J turn, b/gii against KJo (750) in BB who hoped I had AK/AA). we're heading into a stacks in spot in this hand and it feels mighty familiar...

play it for small pots IP.

Are you joking when you talk about your great memory then say you forgot specifics?

When we check flop I think we should probably be calling turn as well if we have no clue about v's range in this spot bc he may be going for value with worse/have some bluffs. I wouldn't take you thinking v is a good pro to mean much. Really depends on specific hh's between you guys or sd's and your dynamic.

Is pro v the straddler or the bb?

If the bb or straddler is a fish opening in the sb could be fine.

I would bet 100ish mw otf i think.

AP if this pro knows we are cbetting too much then i think we need to call turn when we take this type of line with this portion of our range ( if v is in the straddle).

This thread confuses me. There is absolutely nothing to discuss on the turn. It is the river that will be the hardest to play. But we have top ****ing pair and checked twice. Call and play poker.

Why are we folding KJo pre vs. the BB and a straddle? That doesn't make any sense. We're only opening a top 10% range from the SB here? We're opening for the dead money (speaking of which, I'd open my entire range here a bit larger since we're OOP. At least $90-100).

Because you’re never going to get much value OOP vs a solid player with an RIO hand that most of the time is only going to make one pair at best. $35 isn’t enough dead money to be worth putting yourself in difficult spots OOP, especially on boards that favor their range. I can think of a whole lot of other hands that I’d rather have here than KJo. I’m gonna guess that H called turn and then V jammed river.

Folding pre here is terrible advice. You have a range advantage and there’s extra dead money in the pot from the straddle. Not calling it a highly profitable spot by any means but it’s always +EV to raise pre here unless you’re really bad postflop. This is NOT a situation where we should be worried about RIO. If they don’t 3b pre then AK/AQ is highly unlikely.

ok ok, this thread needs to die and I suck at poker

I folded and villain showed T8o

good call everyone (but me)