i'd open more than 3x being OOP vs two players.

Check flop is fine

Mandatory check/call turn

Folding pre is ridiculous just stop. How do you have so many posts and dishing out such horrible advice.

It’s not a trap - j56 is a hi ev board for the ip player range so needs to get checked a lot. Kj mixes but does lots of checking here to protect the full check range
Your whole spiel about kj being the second best hand is just lol a sample size issue and means nothing.
Most live full ring players open this hand way 2 much in ep/ and call 2 many raises with it ip when it’s just a better hand to fold v a raise with
But as an lp open its completely standard and winning
This turn play is such a auto check call with tpgk. You have so many other hands to fold thay giving up your pot share and ev with this hand is just bad poker.

( ) villain is a pro

seems like an uber standard open to me, I know not calling the turn was a mistake (obv, he showed) but i don't mind the plays up to that point, i'm never folding KJo against anyone here, i think a check on the flop is reasonable since it's a pretty hard board to hit, not much changed on the turn

so why did you fold

Well OP put in a bunch of money and then folded the best hand when he actually made the hand that he was most likely to make. What does that say?

If OP c/c this turn his hand is pretty much face up as a TP/overpair type hand and a good V is going to make a lot of rivers a tough spot for a one pair hand. River X. H checks. V bets $1700. Freeze frame, record scratch - “so you’re probably wondering how I got into this mess”

everyone makes mistakes

honestly i thought he had made a hand because of the sizing but i realize now that this sizing is probably always a bluff, it just doesn't make much sense to go 350 here, his value sizing has to be a lot less

i was actually thinking i would have to call off the river as well and that he could bluff a lot of rivers that coordinate with the flop, so it probably would have cost more than i wanted to spend to see his hand, but I'm actually pretty gambly at the table because i only get to play a few times per month due to work and definitely would have wanted to see his sizing on the river

we will never know but i appreciate all the thoughtful responses

no i think i'm calling my entire range on the flop, AQ, AK, pairs, the jack hits a lot of my range and i'm definitely not checking a hand like AQ to fold on the flop...probably c-betting or check calling 100% of my range and never folding this flop because it just misses so many hands, it's actually very dry

even if i had a bluffing hand like 87s i have a gutter with 2 overs to the 5 and 6 so i'm just going to either c-bet or cc. the open raiser is going to have the better hand than the caller on this flop fairly often, 9Ts is the only hand in my raising range i can think of that is dead, I'm continuing with hands like KQo too

This whole post is aids dude
To answer the question about what does that say...it’s the ops fault that he folded what is a 100% call spot. It doesn’t say anything about the hand strength of kj it just says that op needs to do a better job understanding what his range should be doing post flop.

Op c/c this flop and turn is not “pretty much face up as. Tp/overpair” how the heck does a raise pre x/c twice line indicate an overpair?
He actually stumbled onto the optimal line for this spot- the oop player is supposed to do a bunch of checking here on what’s a high ev flop for the ip caller

The whole spiel about the potential 1700$ bet that’s coming is also nonsense.
No one knows wtf the ip player is going to do otr or what his actual 2 cards are. All we know is that the ev of calling is better than the ev of folding and that the oop player with tpgk has easily enough equity now to call. Any other option is just silly.

As for pre flop this spot has been solved and there’s plenty of free software that can show you optimal of opening ranges for this spot. It’s really not even a matter of opinion anymore.

^ no 9-handed NL holdem situations have been "solved". A computer program beat some HU pros last year but that doesn't even mean HU NL has been solved.

X/C flop and turn after raising preflop certainly looks like a 1-pair hand here. Maybe not so much an overpair but that's not making much difference. Villain is supposed to be a very strong player and he's IP so hero needs to get tougher if he's going to take this line. Otherwise just B/F and be done with it.

I think WJ94's point is if hero is going to X/F turn here he's going to be even more likely to X/F river if he did call turn and that's opening him up to big losses and he'd be better off not raising pre in the first place.

Nevertheless, personally I'd raise KJo can preflop here and I would X/C at least two streets with it at least some of the time but then I'd also trap a few combos of stronger hands and have some backdoor draws too so I'm not totally face up.

If you look at results. Villain had 108 o. So he’s not a “ very strong” player but whatever no big deal

Yeah, a good pro should be checking back that turn after bluffing with literally no equity on the flop and then picking up a ton of SDV on the turn. He could bet the river for thin value possibly but betting the turn there just seems really bad unless he has a terrible image.

I didn't say the turn wasn't a call, I didn't say raising pre is bad or that KJ isn't ahead of the other two player's ranges. I just said getting yourself into this spot in the first place versus a "good pro" kind of sucks. If you're just going to flop top pair and then c/c it off for stacks, you're gonna get stacked a whole bunch.

What other hands is OP raising pre and then c/c flop and turn that aren't a one pair hand? This is such a common "I have top pair and don't want to get raised" line these days.

Playing OOP sucks. Playing OOP versus a good pro also sucks. Playing OOP versus a good pro with a hand that's mostly going to make top pair at best also sucks. You're never going to get a ton of value from worse hands. You're going to have to fold a lot of flops/turns/rivers when you don't flop a pair. If someone 3b pre the hand is usually going to be done with unless your'e 4b bluffing KJo. It's fine, but I just don't think it's that great when there's so many more profitable spots to play in position versus the table idiots instead.

Meh, KJo is a mandatory raise pre flop with the straddle on imo. He outplayed me this time but he didn't outplay everyone else ITT so it was my bad, doesn't mean the raise pre isn't solid

Maybe but hero describes villain as a good pro. That's a bit more than saying he's just good. Presumably this guy is known in the card room as a pro because he's there a lot and he doesn't do anything else but play poker.

Therefore the fact he shows up one time with a hand we wouldn't play preflop with a line we wouldn't use postflop doesn't necessarily mean he's bad or not a pro.

Maybe he's just got some solid reads on hero and is happy to go out on a limb against hero when he's in position.

To be honest I don't think V has a ton of showdown value here. So much of hero's X/C flop range is 88+ that most of the time villain just loses at showdown. I mean does hero raise preflop here with a lot of hands that flop a pair smaller than his T8 and X/C flop with it? Against a supposedly tough pro? Seems pretty -EV and quite unlikely. Maybe 77 takes this line but that's now an OESD+pair with 10 outs against V's specific hand.

Maybe hero has 98s but that's only two combos.

God knows how villain balances his turn range given how wide he is preflop and on flop (maybe I'll look at this later). That's where his play starts to look really bad in this hand IMO, not betting this specific hand as a bluff in this turn.

well, i've played with villain a lot and he makes some moves but is usually very taggish, and hand reads better than almost everyone at this table, and he does have a solid grasp of the math. His sizing is usually very accurate

I don't think defending your straddle with T8o is bad if you feel you have a skill edge in a 3way pot, and he has outplayed me in several spots in the past

my clue was the sizing ott which is so incongruous that it just doesn't make any sense for value and I should have called for that reason alone, at the time i thought the sizing meant he had a big hand, like 2pair or a set otf, his sizing pretty much correlates well with his hand strength but this bet size was actually too high

Call turn
Evaluate rivers.

You don't have to make your decision on what to do on the unknown river card when on the turn

Villain can easily be value betting worse for value