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5-10-25 facing river check raise 5-10-25 facing river check raise

08-07-2018 , 11:11 AM
5 handed 5-T with mandatory straddle for 25.

V is 30ish pro looking white guy, haven't played before, been on the table together about 2 hours, definitely a solid TAG player, haven't show any hand not out of line yet, slow played monster OOP c/c turn, CRAI on the river once.

OTTH, 6k effect, 5 handed.

Hero open KK for 75 utg, only V defends his straddle.

(165) Flop QT6, V x, H - 75, V raise to 250, H call.

(665) Turn 6, x thru

(665) River 8, V x, Hero bet $325, V thinks for a while and raises to $1750 Hero???

I have the best KK to call it off here, but it is just so obvious that there are tons of busted draws, I doubt V would bluff here.
5-10-25 facing river check raise Quote
08-07-2018 , 03:05 PM
His line makes no sense. He should be barrelling that turn with pretty much 100% of his flop c/r range. His river c/r makes no sense. I can't think of a hand he has, his line doesn't make sense, nobody c/r'es the river as a bluff, but this seems like a spot where you just have to call and pay to see it. BTW, FWIW, I'm also calling with the KK in this spot, because....his line just doesn't make sense.
5-10-25 facing river check raise Quote
08-07-2018 , 03:38 PM
I'm calling here.

He's either got J9 or something that you beat.

Sucks that you don't beat any of his value range (he's not raising river with AQ right?)
5-10-25 facing river check raise Quote
08-07-2018 , 06:39 PM
It's a mistake to check back turn. You're only losing to 3 combos of TT and 1 combo of 66 and there's tonnes of equity to deny vs draws and tonnes of value against hands like Qxdd, QT. Also once villain checks the turn I feel like the river will be underbluffed by villain so we don't gain much by checking back turn.

Depending on how villain constructs his x/r range on the flop then river bet might be thin.

As played river without knowing that villain is capable of being balanced w/ bluffs here I would pretty comfortably make an exploitative fold. This is so often under bluffed.
5-10-25 facing river check raise Quote
08-07-2018 , 08:42 PM
My thoughts

1. I would consider 3 betting flop. 5 handed he really should be 3 betting tt from the straddle. I dislike your hand's playability on future streets. Diamond turns could mean you are drawing dead. K turn potentially coolers you. Straightening turns are tricky to play because you gain equity but also improves some of his bluffs.

2. I think at this level, players will play very face up and passively against a flop 3 bet. You deny him equity of his weaker semibluffs and he won't punish you the times he is ahead by 4 betting.

3. Turn is a mandatory small bet imo. He is so often shutting down with his bluffs but still has some equity.

4. Not sure why we check turn but go for value on river.

5. River is whatever. Some players bluff this spot like a monkey turning every combo of qt into a bluff. Some will do even more monkey stuff with 89 or j8. I am tempted to call. But against a nitty player I will probably just fold.
5-10-25 facing river check raise Quote
08-07-2018 , 10:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgcounty
I'm calling here.

He's either got J9 or something that you beat.

Sucks that you don't beat any of his value range (he's not raising river with AQ right?)
I don't think he would have AQ - this is a 3bet pre, c/c flop, and also c/c river hand. I agree all his value hands would beat me.
5-10-25 facing river check raise Quote
08-07-2018 , 10:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbenuck4
His line makes no sense. He should be barrelling that turn with pretty much 100% of his flop c/r range. His river c/r makes no sense. I can't think of a hand he has, his line doesn't make sense, nobody c/r'es the river as a bluff, but this seems like a spot where you just have to call and pay to see it. BTW, FWIW, I'm also calling with the KK in this spot, because....his line just doesn't make sense.
I see him played a monster in a similar why- he was OOP, AK bet the K73ss flop, turned Ao, he x/c, river Ksss, he CRAI and got paid. I don;t understand his lines, but it did go thru, and may have his understanding behind.
5-10-25 facing river check raise Quote
08-07-2018 , 10:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarretman
It's a mistake to check back turn. You're only losing to 3 combos of TT and 1 combo of 66 and there's tonnes of equity to deny vs draws and tonnes of value against hands like Qxdd, QT. Also once villain checks the turn I feel like the river will be underbluffed by villain so we don't gain much by checking back turn.

Depending on how villain constructs his x/r range on the flop then river bet might be thin.

As played river without knowing that villain is capable of being balanced w/ bluffs here I would pretty comfortably make an exploitative fold. This is so often under bluffed.
I totally agree with your analysis, bet the run and x back the river should be the best way, if AP, I x the turn, I should x the river as well.
5-10-25 facing river check raise Quote
08-07-2018 , 10:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamallin
My thoughts

1. I would consider 3 betting flop. 5 handed he really should be 3 betting tt from the straddle. I dislike your hand's playability on future streets. Diamond turns could mean you are drawing dead. K turn potentially coolers you. Straightening turns are tricky to play because you gain equity but also improves some of his bluffs.

2. I think at this level, players will play very face up and passively against a flop 3 bet. You deny him equity of his weaker semibluffs and he won't punish you the times he is ahead by 4 betting.

3. Turn is a mandatory small bet imo. He is so often shutting down with his bluffs but still has some equity.

4. Not sure why we check turn but go for value on river.

5. River is whatever. Some players bluff this spot like a monkey turning every combo of qt into a bluff. Some will do even more monkey stuff with 89 or j8. I am tempted to call. But against a nitty player I will probably just fold.
I am not sure about preflop action because 5 handed people open range is fairly wide, and no one really defend the open hard to a 3bet, he might balance it and just call with some big pairs like QQ/TT.

V's c/r on the flop, I would put him on draws/2p+, so I just call and want to play future streets in position. I don't like a 3bet on the flop cuz I would like to keep my range wide. (as V and I don't have any history even I could be balanced my flop 3bet range with draws/sets/over pairs, but V still would lean towards that I have a very strong hand most time, and rarely a draw here).

When I x the turn, I think it might induce a bluff on the river or a value bet for QT that I would def call there. If I x the turn, I shouldn't bet the river either as there is rarely a thin value here, it just open the door for the c/r with monsters or total air. I definitely play the turn and river incorrectly, either bet turn x river, or x turn x river. I agree bet turn x river is better.
5-10-25 facing river check raise Quote
08-11-2018 , 03:31 AM
Feels like J9 quite often here. Based on your description of the player he doesn't seem to get fancy with bluffs so I'd expect him to have the goods more often than not.
5-10-25 facing river check raise Quote
08-12-2018 , 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarretman
It's a mistake to check back turn. You're only losing to 3 combos of TT and 1 combo of 66 and there's tonnes of equity to deny vs draws and tonnes of value against hands like Qxdd, QT. Also once villain checks the turn I feel like the river will be underbluffed by villain so we don't gain much by checking back turn.

Depending on how villain constructs his x/r range on the flop then river bet might be thin.

As played river without knowing that villain is capable of being balanced w/ bluffs here I would pretty comfortably make an exploitative fold. This is so often under bluffed.
+1 turn is the nuts for you. Time to get some value from the infinite amount of draws in vills range and some other 2p hands you beat. Sure you fold out some air, but you're small flop size already induced action and now it's time for value. River is a pretty easy call as you're underrepresented and near the top of your range
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