Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-28-2017, 09:37 AM   #1
Jarretman
veteran
 
Jarretman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Canadaland
Posts: 2,503
5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

Game is 5/10 with a mandatory utg $20 straddle.

Effective 2500

Villain is really good reg according to some other regs I know. Almost zero history with V and I'm new to the table. He probably sees me as a reg/regular rec player.

Hero opens TcTh from MP to $60, v raises to $180 from BTN, hero calls.

Flop $395 Ks9c3d hero checks v bets $125 hero calls

Turn $645 6d hero checks, v checks

River $645 Kc hero checks, v bets $560, hero?
Jarretman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2017, 12:32 PM   #2
Lego05
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 24,160
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

Fold if he really is a good player

IME bet check bet from a good player is almost always value. And the river doesn't look like a good card to bluff.

The K does decrease combos of K hands he can have and tempts a call. But I think whenever I call, TT is beat.

Against a weaker player, I'd call.
Lego05 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2017, 02:19 PM   #3
isunkurbttlship
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
isunkurbttlship's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,109
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

You really think a good player is balancing their bxb lines less than a bad player?
isunkurbttlship is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2017, 02:24 PM   #4
Highspirit1978
journeyman
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 233
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

he could have JT or Kx, I would fold
Highspirit1978 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2017, 03:07 PM   #5
Lego05
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 24,160
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

Quote:
Originally Posted by isunkurbttlship View Post
You really think a good player is balancing their bxb lines less than a bad player?
Bad players have too wide a range so they have too many bad hands and end up bluffing too much. It might not be as wide here though since it was 3bet preflop.

IME good players just tend to be value heavy here and not have too many bluffs.
Lego05 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2017, 06:42 PM   #6
Cbrewer4
adept
 
Cbrewer4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: San Diego
Posts: 782
5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lego05 View Post
Fold if he really is a good player

IME bet check bet from a good player is almost always value. And the river doesn't look like a good card to bluff.

The K does decrease combos of K hands he can have and tempts a call. But I think whenever I call, TT is beat.

Against a weaker player, I'd call.


Yes all the good players never have bluffs in the bet/x/bet that makes sense. The main questions are can he value bet a 9 and does he turn weakest part of range into a bluff. If he is good Iíd assume both are true and call. If you are folding TT here every time my guess is good regs are relentlessly bluffing you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Last edited by Cbrewer4; 10-28-2017 at 06:47 PM.
Cbrewer4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-28-2017, 10:37 PM   #7
boredatheist2
enthusiast
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 78
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

Call.
boredatheist2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2017, 04:43 AM   #8
Lego05
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 24,160
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cbrewer4 View Post
Yes all the good players never have bluffs in the bet/x/bet that makes sense. The main questions are can he value bet a 9 and does he turn weakest part of range into a bluff. If he is good I’d assume both are true and call. If you are folding TT here every time my guess is good regs are relentlessly bluffing you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If the main question is "does he value bet a 9", then exactly what I said is exactly what makes sense.






YMMV, but in this situation I have seen good players be too value heavy. I suppose we can pick straws about what we are each defining as a good player.




EDIT:

It is obviously exploitable to fold TT here. Folding TT here is obviously awful. Without some reason to think otherwise, vs. a good player if you call here with TT you will lose a large majority of the time ... IME anyway. Tendencies can vary in different player pools I suppose.

Last edited by Lego05; 10-29-2017 at 04:49 AM.
Lego05 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2017, 08:57 AM   #9
diskoteque
Joey Local
 
diskoteque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 30,483
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

Easy fold imo

I suspect he is good enough to go for value with like QQ and wouldnít be shocked if he took this line with a K8s-KJ hand either
diskoteque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2017, 12:25 PM   #10
pauper
centurion
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 141
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

Is this one of those live spots where because this looks like a bad river to bluff, that most pros will never bluff, even though they theoretically should be bluffing sometimes? So folding would be super exploitable but we do it anyway because its live poker and even live poker pros are technically bad at poker.
pauper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2017, 12:53 PM   #11
diskoteque
Joey Local
 
diskoteque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 30,483
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

I donít see why you think this is bad play from villain.

What line would you take with like KT or QQ ?
diskoteque is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2017, 04:45 PM   #12
pauper
centurion
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 141
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

Quote:
Originally Posted by diskoteque View Post
I donít see why you think this is bad play from villain.

What line would you take with like KT or QQ ?
It's not bad that villain wouldn't value bet KT or QQ, but its got to be bad if villain never bluffs in this spot which is what a lot of people are saying and also usually my experience.
pauper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2017, 11:44 AM   #13
iamallin
journeyman
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Lonely planet
Posts: 287
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

Easy call. He has aq.

Last edited by iamallin; 10-30-2017 at 12:03 PM.
iamallin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2017, 01:42 PM   #14
lolposting2016
old hand
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,332
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

It's pretty close and you'll wanna mix call/fold here - tt is gonna fit pretty ok in a calling range
He'll show up w qq/jj sometimes - he can include those hands in a flop small cbet strategy and bet this size otr.
He can have plenty of bluffs here tho and we unblock a bunch of a hi stuff that he 3b from the btn. Which is gonna be a big part of his mp vs btn 3b range. It's not a super hi ev spot here either way I dont expect it to be a huge leak to call or fold here.
One thing it's not is "lol duh easy call easy fold"

Last edited by lolposting2016; 10-30-2017 at 01:47 PM.
lolposting2016 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2017, 01:46 PM   #15
RosaParks
veteran
 
RosaParks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Trying to locate my fold button
Posts: 2,886
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

If you fold here, you probably aren't continuing very often at all. Just Kx you didn't vbet and boats that are c/ring. I'm not comfortable being so exploitable with so little info.

I would agree though that b/c/b lines are notoriously under bluffed lines even from good regs. So do what you want. Doubt it matters much either way.
RosaParks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2017, 03:54 PM   #16
hexag1
grinder
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: dimension X
Posts: 442
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cbrewer4 View Post
Yes all the good players never have bluffs in the bet/x/bet that makes sense. The main questions are can he value bet a 9 and does he turn weakest part of range into a bluff. If he is good Iíd assume both are true and call. If you are folding TT here every time my guess is good regs are relentlessly bluffing you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
He can value bet a 9, but I feel that pot is too large. A 9 bets like $250 and folds to a raise.

Sent from my BLN-L24 using Tapatalk
hexag1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2017, 04:34 PM   #17
pocketzeroes
veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,298
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

I call here sometimes and always lose.
pocketzeroes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2017, 06:50 PM   #18
Cbrewer4
adept
 
Cbrewer4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: San Diego
Posts: 782
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

Fun fact we only need to win 30% of the time we call. Itís ok to be shown value most of the time. That means they are playing well


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Cbrewer4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2017, 08:22 PM   #19
YGOchamp
old hand
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,342
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

Yeah this is a pretty clear call from a theory perspective. Especially vs his quarter pot cbet we should be defending a decent amount of hands, so once we arrive at the river we can't just fold everything that isn't Kx when we should have 77/88/JTs/QJs, maybe some QTs and KTs in our range

If you somehow get enough history to find out he's just way underbluffing then sure you can throw TT into your folding range and then... only defend Kx I guess, but seems silly to make a big assumption that your opponent is making a big mistake (underbluffing), when the only info you have on him suggests the exact opposite (good player = balanced range/should have bluffs)

He's for sure vbetting QQ/JJ here, doubt hes ever vbetting 9x without any meta, seems too thin -- thats not enough reason to just autofold TT on KK963r though

---------------

All that being said, I would comment that a likely population tendency would be to underbluff this spot in a live 5/10 game

Last edited by YGOchamp; 10-30-2017 at 08:34 PM.
YGOchamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2017, 05:06 AM   #20
Imaginary F(r)iend
veteran
 
Imaginary F(r)iend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Finland
Posts: 3,090
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

No ***** way he v-bets a 9 with a reasonable frequency. It's just way too thin.

This seems like a reasonably easy fold. If we he would see you as a reg for certain and had some history, I would call.

Last edited by Imaginary F(r)iend; 10-31-2017 at 05:16 AM.
Imaginary F(r)iend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2017, 09:57 AM   #21
Avaritia
Confirmed 2500 hour haver
 
Avaritia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Florida
Posts: 11,214
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

Quote:
Originally Posted by lolposting2016 View Post
It's pretty close and you'll wanna mix call/fold here - tt is gonna fit pretty ok in a calling range
He'll show up w qq/jj sometimes - he can include those hands in a flop small cbet strategy and bet this size otr.
He can have plenty of bluffs here tho and we unblock a bunch of a hi stuff that he 3b from the btn. Which is gonna be a big part of his mp vs btn 3b range. It's not a super hi ev spot here either way I dont expect it to be a huge leak to call or fold here.
One thing it's not is "lol duh easy call easy fold"
Quote:
Originally Posted by RosaParks View Post
If you fold here, you probably aren't continuing very often at all. Just Kx you didn't vbet and boats that are c/ring. I'm not comfortable being so exploitable with so little info.

I would agree though that b/c/b lines are notoriously under bluffed lines even from good regs. So do what you want. Doubt it matters much either way.
+1
Avaritia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2017, 03:45 AM   #22
Loading....
journeyman
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 398
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

Preflop and flop are good, I think leading very small on turn could be good, as played value bet the river 25-33% sizing. Yeesh, call river I guess (for the reasons Cbrewer listed).
Loading.... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-01-2017, 10:31 AM   #23
YGOchamp
old hand
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,342
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loading.... View Post
I think leading very small on turn could be good.
How could you possibly think that would be good?
YGOchamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2017, 01:42 PM   #24
Sacrileged
newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 41
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

pretty easy fold considering ranges (mp vs btn). 9x/88 are slightly better to call than this hand. you could consider having some small % of Kx to c/c or c/r (depending on his river sizing) since he should be inclined to go pretty thin in this spot if you check river (obviously less so in this case with this sizing).
Sacrileged is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2017, 06:46 AM   #25
Loading....
journeyman
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 398
Re: 5/10/20 river decision 3bet pot vs good reg

Quote:
Originally Posted by YGOchamp View Post
How could you possibly think that would be good?
Because we need a stronger hand to call the flop than he needs to bet, and the turn card is irrelevant. Not saying it's standard but can do it once in a while.
Loading.... is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online