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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 12-06-2017, 06:42 PM   #1
ylac
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5/10/20: KK OOP in 3way pot

Game is 5/10/20, $1-5k buyin. Table is good mix of recs/regs, pretty social with fun/gambly vibe.

V1 (MP): Asian rec in late 20s, first time I've seen him. Seems a bit fishy, like to pot his whole range on flops including gutters. Bit loose/passive pre. Can be aggro post. Haven't seen him raise post yet. 4k.

V2 (BB): Good young white TAG reg. Plays more GTO style. Been quite card dead this session. 3.5k.

H (SB): Young Asian TAG reg. Been playing pretty solid this session, up maybe 3k. Covers.

V1 limps in MP, H raises to 100 in SB with KKsh, V2 flats in BB, V1 flats.

Flop (320): T94cdc. H leads 175, V2 flats somewhat quickly, V1 instantly makes it 900. H?

If we flat flop, what's our plan for various turns? If V2 overcalls flop, I think we can give up on a lot of turns. Does anyone like checking flop/betting smaller or is this just results-oriented thinking?
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Old 12-06-2017, 07:39 PM   #2
proBono
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Re: 5/10/20: KK OOP in 3way pot

as played:

I fold .. TT/99 is unlikely, but so many turns suck for us and with V2 in the mix I just don`t know what to do here. We are like never a big favorite.

In general: I like a check on this flop. Maybe with the intention of RR if V1 bets.
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Old 12-06-2017, 08:01 PM   #3
diskoteque
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Re: 5/10/20: KK OOP in 3way pot

Fold
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Old 12-07-2017, 12:16 PM   #4
shorn7
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Re: 5/10/20: KK OOP in 3way pot

That flop smashed described V's range pretty hard and like half the deck we hate on the turn. I probably just let it go.

This hand displays why playing a big pair OOP is hard multi-way on tons of flops. I think a c/c flop/eval turn line here is fine as it works for pot control as well as potentially limiting losses with a hand that looks like a value hand on its face, but is probably more of a bluff catcher vs more than one opponent on a board like this. Seems weenie, but just don't think we can extract confident value all that often in this spot.
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Old 12-07-2017, 03:50 PM   #5
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Re: 5/10/20: KK OOP in 3way pot

Make it 120 or even 130 pre to exploit the loose fishy dude and because you are OOP to the whole table. Yeah, folding flop can't be that bad against the raise though I don't mind betting given the opponents.
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Old 12-07-2017, 05:20 PM   #6
iamallin
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Re: 5/10/20: KK OOP in 3way pot

Hard to fold this specific hand.

I would call and look to play some turns.

Then again I am no 10bb ph winnah
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Old 12-08-2017, 06:21 PM   #7
ylac
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Re: 5/10/20: KK OOP in 3way pot

Cool, I thought I was being very nitty/scared money to even consider checking flop.

Results:
Spoiler:
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Old 12-08-2017, 11:09 PM   #8
lolposting2016
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Re: 5/10/20: KK OOP in 3way pot

Folding is pretty silly here otf but also the flop sizing should be way bigger on this board like 75% works much better for your draws and 10x+
You also don’t block and of the draws and there’s tons of them.
Tt will also 3b with some pretty decent frequency. As will 99. (But p10s is definitely getting 3b much more often)
I’d be tempted to 3b his raise at a pretty high frequency bc his range should be lots of draws. And again I think your blockers are quite good here for calling.

Last edited by lolposting2016; 12-08-2017 at 11:20 PM.
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Old 12-08-2017, 11:24 PM   #9
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Re: 5/10/20: KK OOP in 3way pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by proBono View Post
as played:

I fold .. TT/99 is unlikely, but so many turns suck for us and with V2 in the mix I just don`t know what to do here. We are like never a big favorite.

In general: I like a check on this flop. Maybe with the intention of RR if V1 bets.
You’re never THAT big a favorite in nlhe. X is ok but what are you betting for value here? Are you playing this flop as a pure x? You are pushing a ton of equity here and there’s tons of worse hands to get value from
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Old 12-09-2017, 10:51 AM   #10
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Re: 5/10/20: KK OOP in 3way pot

I don’t like checking as you’re basically forced to c/c 3 streets and will get bluffed off the best hand with a higher frequency

Bet/folding is fine tho
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Old 12-09-2017, 05:09 PM   #11
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Re: 5/10/20: KK OOP in 3way pot

I disagree pretty strongly. This is such a massive exploit and folding now bc your afraid of losing a stack bc you’re afraid of losing a big pot is just bad poker
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Old 12-09-2017, 10:00 PM   #12
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Re: 5/10/20: KK OOP in 3way pot

Pretty confident nobody is exploiting anyone in live poker except for regs in nosebleeds where there’s a super small community
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Old 12-10-2017, 08:58 PM   #13
ylac
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Re: 5/10/20: KK OOP in 3way pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by lolposting2016 View Post
Folding is pretty silly here otf but also the flop sizing should be way bigger on this board like 75% works much better for your draws and 10x+
You also don’t block and of the draws and there’s tons of them.
Tt will also 3b with some pretty decent frequency. As will 99. (But p10s is definitely getting 3b much more often)
I’d be tempted to 3b his raise at a pretty high frequency bc his range should be lots of draws. And again I think your blockers are quite good here for calling.
I disagree, on this board which favours the 2 Vs' cold-calling/limp-calling ranges I think it's better to use a smaller sizing otherwise we're bloating the pot with a decent hand that can't take too much heat (we're 200 straddles deep and OOP).

I think 3bing flop is overplaying our hand, we're never getting it in as a favourite and can easily be crushed by 44/T9/TT/99 and flipping with Axcc/QJcc/78cc etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lolposting2016 View Post
You’re never THAT big a favorite in nlhe. X is ok but what are you betting for value here? Are you playing this flop as a pure x? You are pushing a ton of equity here and there’s tons of worse hands to get value from
Betting good Tx/sets/2p/FDs/straight draws. Checking middling Tx/9x. Overpairs we can play mixed between bet and c/c, prefer to bet JJ/QQ since we need protection against overs. Not sure if we prefer betting if we have a club vs no club.
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Old 12-11-2017, 04:58 PM   #14
Snoopy123
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Re: 5/10/20: KK OOP in 3way pot

Bet bigger on the flop, now fold
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Old 12-11-2017, 10:51 PM   #15
just_grindin
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Re: 5/10/20: KK OOP in 3way pot

Flop bet sizing is fine. No reason to bomb as it isn't really great for our range.

If you wanted to check KK do it with a club on this flop.
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Old 12-12-2017, 04:12 AM   #16
lolposting2016
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Re: 5/10/20: KK OOP in 3way pot

^^^It’s fine but it’s probably not optimal i think you can/should play different sizings here on this board. but overall this part of your range wants to bet big and get money in early vs most of his range. You’ll have a pretty substantial checking range here so it makes sense to bet for the larger sizing with many/most parts of your range that do decide to make a bet also hands like qj/89/some club draws like to bet pretty big to get some better fold Equity and more $ In the flop when equities run a little closer w two to come

Last edited by lolposting2016; 12-12-2017 at 04:18 AM. Reason: (I think most of this is close)
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Old 12-15-2017, 05:32 AM   #17
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Re: 5/10/20: KK OOP in 3way pot

Grunch

My first instinct reading the hh is to fold as played. And I might have folded in game tbh.

However, thinking about it for a little while I realized that I'm V2's spot from the BB he really wants to be raising his sets and 2pair (from most villains perspectives at least) and he doesn't have too many of those as he should be 3betting TT somewhat often if not always, folding T9o and 3betting T9s some of the time.

So I mean we are really only worried about V1 and as far as overpair combos go, this is one of our best. We don't block any QJ, J8, 78, or FDs. Also V1 is likely not l/c 99, TT pre and maybe not even l/c 44 but much more likely than 99, TT.

So I feel like I want to continue... but what's the best way to continue? Calling sucks for a variety of reasons... Raising normalish is awkward with stack sizes and we'd.be calling it off anyways.

I like jamming the flop. It's high variance but I think it might be the best play. Either way I think this spot is close.

As for flop sizing with V1 in the pot I think I'd lean a bit bigger but I dont hate it. Preflop you can size up your raise as well but meh.
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Old 12-15-2017, 07:59 AM   #18
just_grindin
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Re: 5/10/20: KK OOP in 3way pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by lolposting2016 View Post
^^^It’s fine but it’s probably not optimal i think you can/should play different sizings here on this board. but overall this part of your range wants to bet big and get money in early vs most of his range.
I disagree with this. If you get raised here it's probably not great and getting money in early doesn't make a lot of sense as there are some turns that we don't like but for the most part we can showdown.

It's possible multiple sizings is optimal but I would assume not practical for humans without giving away information about your range.

[QUOTE=lolposting2016;53229078You’ll have a pretty substantial checking range here so it makes sense to bet for the larger sizing with many/most parts of your range[/QUOTE]

I don't think one implies the other. Sometimes we check because the board is bad for our range. That doesn't necessarily mean when we bet we should bet big.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lolposting2016 View Post
that do decide to make a bet also hands like qj/89/some club draws like to bet pretty big to get some better fold Equity and more $ In the flop when equities run a little closer w two to come
Maybe but we can always barrel as well and our bet size can change on the turn and river.
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Old Yesterday, 12:34 PM   #19
diskoteque
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Re: 5/10/20: KK OOP in 3way pot

We aren’t worried about v2, at least I’m not.

I just feel like we get shown 44 like almost always here. Sometimes T9o. And if we are really lucky we are flipping vs a pair+fd or something. It’s a rec player who is sitting on 4K and it’s it’s first time showing aggression postflop in a 3b pot. In my personal experience I’m always drawing dead here
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Old Today, 12:41 AM   #20
Teph
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Re: 5/10/20: KK OOP in 3way pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by diskoteque View Post
We aren’t worried about v2, at least I’m not.

I just feel like we get shown 44 like almost always here. Sometimes T9o. And if we are really lucky we are flipping vs a pair+fd or something. It’s a rec player who is sitting on 4K and it’s it’s first time showing aggression postflop in a 3b pot. In my personal experience I’m always drawing dead here
lol, this.

also idk why we are acting like we had insane equity given results, we are so smoked vs two live players piling along on this flop ainec
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