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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 05-04-2020, 04:09 PM   #1
SandFish
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3bet pot with huge range advantage - too aggro?

Had this scenario in a 5/10 game awhile back. What I struggle with in this hand is how to think about the bluff frequency in scenarios where we have an undeniable range advantage, I feel incentivized to bluff a ton

V (UTG+2) raises to $30
H (UTG+3) raises to $90 with KQs (bottom of 3b range)
V calls, everyone else folds

Flop: AA3r

Rest of action:

V x, H bets 1/4 pot, V calls

Turn: AA36r

V x, H bets 1/4 pot, V calls

River: AA365r

V x, H bets 1.25x pot

Let's assume for this example that V 4bets most if not all AKo, AKs, QQ-AA

How bad is this line? Blockers not really relevant but I like reducing the chance V has AK/AQ. We are near the bottom of our range, V is capped at AJ/AQ

My question in this spot is should we ever not aggressively bet all 3 streets given V is severely capped and we have significantly more nutted combinations? Do we take the same line with KK/QQ?

Also would like feedback on sizing. Good overbet spot given we have a polarized range that includes heavily nutted hands? The way I thought about it is I tried to play this hand how I would've played AK.
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Old 05-06-2020, 11:13 AM   #2
DannyAIC
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Re: 3bet pot with huge range advantage - too aggro?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SandFish View Post
Had this scenario in a 5/10 game awhile back. What I struggle with in this hand is how to think about the bluff frequency in scenarios where we have an undeniable range advantage, I feel incentivized to bluff a ton

V (UTG+2) raises to $30
H (UTG+3) raises to $90 with KQs (bottom of 3b range)
V calls, everyone else folds

Flop: AA3r

Rest of action:

V x, H bets 1/4 pot, V calls

Turn: AA36r

V x, H bets 1/4 pot, V calls

River: AA365r

V x, H bets 1.25x pot

Let's assume for this example that V 4bets most if not all AKo, AKs, QQ-AA

How bad is this line? Blockers not really relevant but I like reducing the chance V has AK/AQ. We are near the bottom of our range, V is capped at AJ/AQ

My question in this spot is should we ever not aggressively bet all 3 streets given V is severely capped and we have significantly more nutted combinations? Do we take the same line with KK/QQ?

Also would like feedback on sizing. Good overbet spot given we have a polarized range that includes heavily nutted hands? The way I thought about it is I tried to play this hand how I would've played AK.
Part of the problem is your line doesn’t make a whole bunch of sense.

If you really had a great hand why aren’t you betting half pot or more on the turn?
If you really had a great hand why aren’t you betting smaller on the rover when your opponent has shown zero strength throughout the hand.
What do you think your out of position opponent is calling you down with?
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Old 05-06-2020, 06:40 PM   #3
ceegee
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Re: 3bet pot with huge range advantage - too aggro?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SandFish View Post
Had this scenario in a 5/10 game awhile back. What I struggle with in this hand is how to think about the bluff frequency in scenarios where we have an undeniable range advantage, I feel incentivized to bluff a ton

V (UTG+2) raises to $30
H (UTG+3) raises to $90 with KQs (bottom of 3b range)
V calls, everyone else folds

Flop: AA3r

Rest of action:

V x, H bets 1/4 pot, V calls

Turn: AA36r

V x, H bets 1/4 pot, V calls

River: AA365r

V x, H bets 1.25x pot

Let's assume for this example that V 4bets most if not all AKo, AKs, QQ-AA

How bad is this line? Blockers not really relevant but I like reducing the chance V has AK/AQ. We are near the bottom of our range, V is capped at AJ/AQ

My question in this spot is should we ever not aggressively bet all 3 streets given V is severely capped and we have significantly more nutted combinations? Do we take the same line with KK/QQ?

Also would like feedback on sizing. Good overbet spot given we have a polarized range that includes heavily nutted hands? The way I thought about it is I tried to play this hand how I would've played AK.

I think when you get to the river in this spot you mix bluffing at a frequency. You aren't bluffing every combo of QK etc. Also some villains won't raise flop/turn with AK/AQ so they will still have AKo at a frequency getting to the river here leaving them not as capped a s you might think.

Last edited by ceegee; 05-06-2020 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 05-07-2020, 02:57 PM   #4
jdr0317
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Re: 3bet pot with huge range advantage - too aggro?

You have to ask yourself how you’d play AJ+ here.

The answer is, you wouldn’t bet 1/4th pot on turn.

On the turn, you make a small bet that can be called by hands like 99 so that maybe you can still value bet QQ/KK. But then you bomb. It really doesn’t make sense strategically.

The better way to attack with range edge is to bomb turn.


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Old 05-08-2020, 11:37 AM   #5
U of M Poker
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Re: 3bet pot with huge range advantage - too aggro?

Your play seems fine at reasonable frequency. Some times give up on turn, sometime give up on river, sometimes bomb river seems like a good strategy.

If you have some sort of exploitative read/ history with this opponent, that should help a lot in this spot.
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Old 05-11-2020, 06:11 PM   #6
SandFish
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Re: 3bet pot with huge range advantage - too aggro?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
You have to ask yourself how you’d play AJ+ here.

The answer is, you wouldn’t bet 1/4th pot on turn.

On the turn, you make a small bet that can be called by hands like 99 so that maybe you can still value bet QQ/KK. But then you bomb. It really doesn’t make sense strategically.

The better way to attack with range edge is to bomb turn.


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I thought a small bet size was best given the board is dry and static. So my thinking is that I would bet small with AK, KK/QQ, and my air KQ. Is that not the right way to think about it? Let me know if I am mis-applying concepts
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Old 05-11-2020, 06:14 PM   #7
jdr0317
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Re: 3bet pot with huge range advantage - too aggro?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SandFish View Post
I thought a small bet size was best given the board is dry and static. So my thinking is that I would bet small with AK, KK/QQ, and my air KQ. Is that not the right way to think about it? Let me know if I am mis-applying concepts

My issue with this strategy is that it doesn’t maximize when we have a monster. I’d rather bet big with my big aces or better + most KQ combos, check my lower pocket pairs and weaker aces + some KQ combos.

This being said, I don’t think your strategy is bad. It’s holistic at the very least. I’d be interested to see what others think.


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Old 05-12-2020, 10:35 AM   #8
PokerNoob@
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Re: 3bet pot with huge range advantage - too aggro?

V should have most A3s/A5s/33/66, maybe A6s/55 more often than H.

In live game, even you 1.25x river, for this hand, it is not a huge dollar amount in 5/T game to apply enough pressure. V's not folding middle pair or any A here.

AP, I would bluff this combo in a low frequency, and start betting bigger on the turn.
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Old 05-14-2020, 03:24 PM   #9
Petrucci
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Re: 3bet pot with huge range advantage - too aggro?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SandFish View Post
I thought a small bet size was best given the board is dry and static. So my thinking is that I would bet small with AK, KK/QQ, and my air KQ. Is that not the right way to think about it? Let me know if I am mis-applying concepts
Its a sound strategy. The problem is that you cant have it both ways. Like when you have your choosen bluff combos like KQ, you likely dont get many folds when you bet with small sizing. Most people just close their eyes and pays it off with any Ax or a good pocket pair unless they see the writing on the wall facing large "scary" bets. On the other hand you get alot of value if you also sizes small with your valuebetting combos for the same reasons: because you wont get many folds when chosing small sizing, so you always gets paid something with your good hands.

You really have to reflect over what suits your game the best, what exploits your opponents the best way and what suits the playerpool you play against the best. At least thats my few cents.

If you have a tight image with lots of natural fold equity and want to widen your game little bit, i would start with how to open your game more and to suit that purpose in a proper way- if you are a lag player with small amount of fold equity in your game i would start there and so forth.
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Old 05-14-2020, 06:06 PM   #10
SandFish
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Re: 3bet pot with huge range advantage - too aggro?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrucci View Post
Its a sound strategy. The problem is that you cant have it both ways. Like when you have your choosen bluff combos like KQ, you likely dont get many folds when you bet with small sizing. Most people just close their eyes and pays it off with any Ax or a good pocket pair unless they see the writing on the wall facing large "scary" bets. On the other hand you get alot of value if you also sizes small with your valuebetting combos for the same reasons: because you wont get many folds when chosing small sizing, so you always gets paid something with your good hands.

You really have to reflect over what suits your game the best, what exploits your opponents the best way and what suits the playerpool you play against the best. At least thats my few cents.

If you have a tight image with lots of natural fold equity and want to widen your game little bit, i would start with how to open your game more and to suit that purpose in a proper way- if you are a lag player with small amount of fold equity in your game i would start there and so forth.
That's why i elected to overbet the river. Getting some mixed responses so I'm not sure. I didnt think my turn bet would get folds but i felt it was ok since it is part of setting up for a good river spot (board was not going to change much)?

I agree we should change up our sizing/lines against opponents, i'm curious what the right line in a vacuum is. in this case it was a 5/10 unknown, player pool for 5/10 on week nights is pretty solid
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Old 05-22-2020, 12:04 AM   #11
lolposting2016
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Re: 3bet pot with huge range advantage - too aggro?

Holy moly there is some bad advice itt
Anyways pf is fine your biggest mistake imo is thinking that some random live fr reg is 4b a high frequency of ak /aq
(He’s not) your k and q blockers don’t mean much since he’s not really 4b those hands anyway
Not sure if 25% pot is a thing ott don’t think it is but probably not end of the world
River I guess you have to bluff sometimes but i think giving up works fine since he’s never folding an ace anyway
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Old 05-25-2020, 01:05 PM   #12
pgcounty
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Re: 3bet pot with huge range advantage - too aggro?

early position opener who calls a 3 bet in 5/10

your range advantage is NOT huge
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