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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old 10-16-2017, 06:10 PM   #1
Daft_Punk
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3/5/10 KK thoughts please

Long time no time guys

3/5/10 game been a good game so far. Hero doubled thru villain a few hands earlier KK > QQ all in pre. Villain is a decent player who plays often. 1.1k effective.

I open KK utg (after the $10 straddle) to 55. Get flatted by utg+1 (villain). One more caller from the blinds and we head to a flop. Pot is 180~

Flop 45T rainbow. Checks to hero- we bet 115 into the pot. Utg+1 flats, SB folds. Pot is 410~

Turn 4 completing rainbow. 445T. Hero leads again for 245. Villain calls. Pot is 900~

River 8. Board 4458T. Hero jams for the rest (700~). Thoughts on line? Also would appreciate thoughts on the board texture and how we might play other lines.
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Old 10-16-2017, 06:17 PM   #2
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Re: 3/5/10 KK thoughts please

One other detail -

About 15 minutes earlier, hero opened ATo and was 3bet by villain. We folds and he showed TT.**
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Old 10-16-2017, 07:26 PM   #3
Ranma4703
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Re: 3/5/10 KK thoughts please

Looks good to me
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Old 10-16-2017, 08:13 PM   #4
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Re: 3/5/10 KK thoughts please

Overall its fine but sizing can be adjusted, specifically maybe bet a little more on the turn. River is very thin V may only call with better, 67 got there and I don't think V is calling with A10, V also has some 4s in his range..
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Old 10-17-2017, 12:15 PM   #5
discgolfing
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Re: 3/5/10 KK thoughts please

It's not a bad line per say, but it may not be the most ideal line in this situation. It's great if villain is a fish or if your image is laggy/trash. Otherwise it's not that easy getting stacks in vs. worse. V should always 3bet QQ and probably 3bet JJ most of the time pre, so what's left? Looks like T8s exactly (and that could even be a fold pre or a fold on the turn for him), maybe ATs, rarely something worse.

So when v calls the flop and the turn and we have this huge pot oop on the river, I'm not in love with my KK anymore. It's just awkward. Not a lot of value left to extract most of the time, and not a fun spot to be in when he has us beat. I guess I bet small with the intention of bet/folding.

That's why on such a dry board this deep, I like going for 2 streets of value instead of 3 vs. most villains. We can do this by checking either the flop or the turn and betting the other streets on the vast majority of run-outs, this should maximize our value vs. a lot of the hands we're looking to get paid from.
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Old 10-17-2017, 07:47 PM   #6
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Re: 3/5/10 KK thoughts please

Yes this is fine. I would bet slightly smaller on flop.
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Old 10-17-2017, 08:54 PM   #7
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Re: 3/5/10 KK thoughts please

Are we bluffing here ever?

This being said, I think the only way we get money out of this guy on the end is exactly what you did. Hope he has ATs/slowplayed JJ-QQ pre.
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Old 10-18-2017, 11:46 AM   #8
Leha
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Re: 3/5/10 KK thoughts please

He has TT/JJ/QQ/KK(super rare cause you block) and AA there (if he is pretty good).
You just have to decide based on earlier knowledge/tells etc' which one hand he has more frequently.
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Old 10-18-2017, 05:00 PM   #9
Daft_Punk
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Re: 3/5/10 KK thoughts please

So spot was a cooler, v snap calls and tables 55 for the winning hand. I check the turn on a lot of cards for some of the reasons mentioned above, but the 4 seems to be a really good card for me to barrel on. Do you guys agree on that, pr what are your thoughts?

On the river, I'm check calling a jam with value and I'm jamming for value/bluff the rest of the time. I should have more bluffs by the river than him so I thought taking this line was appropriate.
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Old 10-18-2017, 06:26 PM   #10
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Re: 3/5/10 KK thoughts please

Whether we are actually bluffing river ever is irrelevant; it's only relevant if we think villain can perceive us to be bluffing. All his worse hands that can call are basically only beating bluffs. So it is kind of a thin spot but this all looks fine imo. Some small sizing considerations maybe
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Old 10-20-2017, 01:30 AM   #11
discgolfing
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Re: 3/5/10 KK thoughts please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daft_Punk View Post
So spot was a cooler, v snap calls and tables 55 for the winning hand. I check the turn on a lot of cards for some of the reasons mentioned above, but the 4 seems to be a really good card for me to barrel on. Do you guys agree on that, pr what are your thoughts?

On the river, I'm check calling a jam with value and I'm jamming for value/bluff the rest of the time. I should have more bluffs by the river than him so I thought taking this line was appropriate.
I stand by my first post. I think it's too thin/greedy in a typical 2/5 game to try to get stacks in this deep with this hand on this run out. So no, I don't like a bet on the turn, I think it actually makes more sense to bet cards that he might have picked up equity with (like a non-rainbow 6, 7, or 8) - The reason being on a dry board like this another bet is going to fold out too many hands you beat... and even the ones that call are going to have a hard time calling the river. Going for 2 streets of value on flop/river instead just makes more money vs. worse and saves more money vs. better imo. Now if the turn was that non-rainbow 7, we have a whole lot more worse hands that can call a bet - 66, 88, any Tx with a flush draw.

Also worth nothing - if you're in a similar spot in the future and worse overpairs are in their range then that changes a lot. But in this spot... our v never has QQ and has very little JJ.
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Old 10-20-2017, 02:39 AM   #12
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Re: 3/5/10 KK thoughts please

What's up with the 5.5x open? If the game is that loose I'd still rather raise to a conventional size and invite someone to squeeze light. As played I think flop and turn are fine but his call on the turn worries me. River shove is "only" 3/4 pot but huge for a 3/5 game. Add that to the fact that previous history with villain implies he usually has it against you/this is not a spot he's hero calling with worse against such a transparent line and I think it's too thin.

Side note: It's really annoying/unnecessary the way you re-order the board in ascending order after every street
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Old 10-20-2017, 02:45 AM   #13
onedollars
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Re: 3/5/10 KK thoughts please

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daft_Punk View Post
One other detail -

About 15 minutes earlier, hero opened ATo and was 3bet by villain. We folds and he showed TT.**
imo this is a "mutual respect/let's not get into a leveling war" show not a "i'm setting you up for a move" show
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Old 10-20-2017, 04:45 PM   #14
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Re: 3/5/10 KK thoughts please

if hes not going to bluff river i like b/folding 300ish

and to bluff river he has to have 43s, extremely unlikely, or turn SDV into a bluff w very little money behind, unlikely in a live game ime

also i like a 180-200 bet on turn, think it may keep 66-99 and 76 around more, which obv is bad on this river but generally is better
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Old 10-25-2017, 01:22 AM   #15
lolposting2016
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Re: 3/5/10 KK thoughts please

You should b betting bigger not smaller on this turn (mostly) your range adv is huge and wanna be playing mostly big siizings ott but you can mix with some smaller sizing 2 so it's not a big deal
River is fine as a jam or smaller so nh
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Old 10-30-2017, 01:57 AM   #16
browni3141
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Re: 3/5/10 KK thoughts please

Preflop is the main mistake in this hand, IMO. As played postflop seems standard to go 3 streets. Not sure why anyone would say he has 76/4x. If he has any combos of those then he’s a fish and it’s even more of a case for value betting the river. Realistically we only lose to 7 combos of boats/quads.
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Old 11-02-2017, 12:06 PM   #17
TenHighCallDown
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Re: 3/5/10 KK thoughts please

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
Are we bluffing here ever?
We should be if villain's calling range on the river is nothing but boats. It was only 3-way to the flop and no reads on BB, so it was never really a protected pot.

That said, if I'm in villain's shoes, I would never bluffcatch a triple barrel from someone who opened 5.5x unless a slew of very obvious draws missed, so there's that.
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Old 11-02-2017, 01:04 PM   #18
jdr0317
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Re: 3/5/10 KK thoughts please

Quote:
Originally Posted by TenHighCallDown View Post
We should be if villain's calling range on the river is nothing but boats. It was only 3-way to the flop and no reads on BB, so it was never really a protected pot.

That said, if I'm in villain's shoes, I would never bluffcatch a triple barrel from someone who opened 5.5x unless a slew of very obvious draws missed, so there's that.
From vllain's POV, just unsure of what hands we'd even be motivated to bluff with. AK/AQ seem like silly bluffs, though maybe reasonable if we can assume villain dumps a ten to three barrels. I'd probably use A2s/A3s as my bluffs myself, if I have them.
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Old 11-02-2017, 01:16 PM   #19
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Re: 3/5/10 KK thoughts please

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
From vllain's POV, just unsure of what hands we'd even be motivated to bluff with.
Once the rainbow 4 rolls off (blocking some of villain's nutted range and making the board a total barren wasteland for draws), complete and utter air.

Which is why, from villain's POV, I wouldn't bluffcatch a triple barrel from anyone I perceive as a weaktight reg.
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