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Old 11-09-2012, 04:31 PM   #201
DGAF
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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mbn to have a choice.
They don't make boxes big enough for all the money you win. So yeah, I guess you don't have a choice.
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Old 11-09-2012, 06:23 PM   #202
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

MBN
I didn't know this text speak phrase , so I figured it must be one of the top two hits on google, right?

Does MBN refer to the Memphis Barbeque Network , or the Myrtle Beach National golf course?
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:41 PM   #203
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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While hoodie, sunglasses and headphones isn't good for the vibe, it doesn't even compare to being a dick/angle shooting/hitting and running/killing a group straddle/etc. As long as you aren't doing those things- and you are polite/not smug when you do have to interact, you are fine. I'd really suggest using the earphones that go in your ear though- they are so much better to look at than headphones. And then when things do turn around for you a bit, maybe then start contributing to the vibe more IMO.

If someone is a douchebag and/or talks strat constantly he isn't a real pro. I won't give someone like this the time of day (whereas I will literally give it to everyone else). Sometimes I'll be a vigilante and make it a point to destroy this person in hands or with words, but he will not get my attention otherwise.

Being outnumbered by a lol wannabe crew sucks. That's another reason why you should form as many alliances as possible in casinos. Regardless, when facing one of these crews at a table, I will often just pick up because I know I'm going to be too tilted to play. Or if the leader is ridic deep, I will maybe add on and make him want to leave. And of course if all else fails, challenging everyone to hu for higher stakes (and being serious and binding) usually gets people to stfu really fast lol. Most of these guys don't have much heart/gamble when it comes right down to it.

GL
how many times have you seen this happen live?
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Old 11-10-2012, 10:06 AM   #204
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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how many times have you seen this happen live?
I see it challenged all the time. And it's a good weapon against fake, smug hot shots who are constantly talking ****. Just challenge them in front of the table and be ready to back it up. They will usually make up some excuse why they "can't play today", but afterwards they almost always stfu and lose their attitude at least temporarily. Mission accomplished.

Sometimes you will have to play (live hu is awkward as **** lol), but it can be a nice change of pace and ofc sometimes you will have a pretty big edge- most of the time though variance will win, as long as one person isn't folding too much or doing something else really terrible.

If you are going to do it, just make sure you set parameters (buyin amounts, how long you are going to play, etc). And in order to get the casino to spread it (and in order to keep others from joining), you will usually need to make the blinds bigger than the biggest game going already. If you do all this, your offer/challenge will be legit, and on those rare occasions when it's accepted usually no1 (except for people like Phil laak who don't get it) will bother you/try to sit down.

As much as I don't like live hu and am by no means a hu specialist/expert, I've probably challenged it maybe 1 out of 5 sessions lifetime (I have a lot of vigilante in me lol). And I've played dozens of matches, usually conceding something (like paying all the rake, or in extreme cases giving my opponent the button every hand if I'm really tilted and/or think I have a monster edge) to get action. And there are plenty of other people who do this as well (though most aren't dumb enough to give up the button every hand lol). And some of course do it not because they are live poker vigilantes/have beef, but rather just because that's what they did online...

Come to think of it, almost all hu matches take place over night (which might explain why you are unfamiliar with them). I just played one the other day (night).

---

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Last edited by DGAF; 11-10-2012 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 11-13-2012, 07:23 PM   #205
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So, you'ved mentioned a few times that people really don't fully understand variance.

I think i used to be one of those people until it happened to me.

Care to share a story or two about your worst (poker related) downswings?
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:34 PM   #206
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Dgaf your hu challenges had me lol'ing because it reminded me of something I saw a couple of years ago. One of the regs at my casino who talks a ton of crap and regularly challenges them to hu matches is challenged to a match by someone who happened to win the wsop main this year. Now loud crap talker is no idiot so he backs out, so the champ offers to play with one card facing up. Obviously the champ loses, but it was hilarious to watch the whole thing unfold. I have only one opportunity to challenge a d-bag to hu. Playing 5/10 I had just gotten stacked by some guy who proceeded to tell everyone he knew exactly what I had and how much better he was than anyone else. Someone else at the table just said how lucky he was and d-bag laughed at him and told him he would play him hu for 10k. Other dude obviously doesn't play hu so I slapped 10k in cash on the table and told him I'd get a floor to open a table if he was serious. He made some bs excuse about needing to go to his room to get the money and never went.

As for variance, I might be the poster child for that. From Jan-nov 2010 I didn't have a losing month and probably only had a couple months with losing weeks. From march 2011-jun 2012 I didn't have a winning month and I think I had maybe 1-2 winning weeks in a row in that time. This year I have crushed personal session worsts in 2/5 (4k in 500 cap) and 5/10 (11k in 2k cap). I don't know if anyone fully understands variance, but I do know that when I am running bad I tend to start to play bad, so generally I will go down a level or 2 until I start winning, and I am obviously more willing to play higher when I am running/playing good. Running good/bad shouldn't effect your game, but the reality is that pretty much everyone plays worse when they have been running bad for a while.
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Old 11-14-2012, 12:36 AM   #207
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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So, you'ved mentioned a few times that people really don't fully understand variance.

I think i used to be one of those people until it happened to me.

Care to share a story or two about your worst (poker related) downswings?
Pretty much no one understands or can even really begin to understand variance until they go through a really really rough patch themselves. Not just a downswing but the most brutal downswing you have ever gone through, bigger than you ever expected.

I remember going through a nearly 50 buy in downswing online several years ago when the general consensus at the time was that if you went on a bigger downswing than 30 buy ins...you sucked at poker. It was a really hard thing to deal with for me at the time as my previous biggest downswing was about 25 buy ins, so almost 2x my biggest downswing. I really never could have imagined it could or would have ever gotten that bad and pretty much nothing could have prepared me for it other than actually going through it.

I don't really think someone can be trained or taught how to deal with a really bad downswing. All you can do is just run insanely bad for a really long time and if at the end when it's all over, if you're still playing poker, despite going through that...congrats, because poker is never really any harder than when you are at your absolute lowest point bankroll wise, mentally, etc...
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Old 11-14-2012, 01:55 AM   #208
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Dgaf your hu challenges had me lol'ing because it reminded me of something I saw a couple of years ago. One of the regs at my casino who talks a ton of crap and regularly challenges them to hu matches is challenged to a match by someone who happened to win the wsop main this year. Now loud crap talker is no idiot so he backs out, so the champ offers to play with one card facing up. Obviously the champ loses, but it was hilarious to watch the whole thing unfold.
Did this really happen? Seems pretty hard to believe Greg Merson would give up that much of an edge to anyone who knows the rules of poker. Maybe he was on coke? (kinda joking but kinda serious, hope this isn't offensive to anyone, Merson is the ****ing man btw)
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:18 AM   #209
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Did this really happen? Seems pretty hard to believe Greg Merson would give up that much of an edge to anyone who knows the rules of poker. Maybe he was on coke? (kinda joking but kinda serious, hope this isn't offensive to anyone, Merson is the ****ing man btw)
Doesn't seem too far fetched to me. Sounds like Greg has a lot of heart and was willing to take the worst of it in order to make a clown out of the guy talking ****. Pretty common ime for really good minds to consciously make -ev choices on occasion in the name of doing what is right/never becoming a serial grinder/just having fun sometimes. 2p2 calls it being "degen", those of us who do it just think of it as +ev on a different level.

---

Bo- I'll reply to the variance q later. Gonna play a session tonight and don't want to open pandora's box lol. But I used to swing 1000+ bbs in a session all the time when the conditions were favorable for sitting deep and going bezerk (from like 2008-2010). Thats 10 or 20k (depending on what was going) per session, no prob .
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Old 11-14-2012, 03:30 PM   #210
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Bo- I'll reply to the variance q later. Gonna play a session tonight and don't want to open pandora's box lol. But I used to swing 1000+ bbs in a session all the time when the conditions were favorable for sitting deep and going bezerk (from like 2008-2010). Thats 10 or 20k (depending on what was going) per session, no prob .
Thanks DGAF, that makes me feel better.

Now that its 2012 and the game has changed, how much do you find yourself swinging intrasession now, and how much for like the 25% of swingiest sessions?
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Old 11-15-2012, 12:09 AM   #211
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Did this really happen? Seems pretty hard to believe Greg Merson would give up that much of an edge to anyone who knows the rules of poker. Maybe he was on coke? (kinda joking but kinda serious, hope this isn't offensive to anyone, Merson is the ****ing man btw)
I don't know if he was on coke or not, I'd guess a little weed if anything. I think he could have been a little smarter by not flipping over a card until the river or something. I am pretty sure he offered the other guy button every hand but that wasn't enough.
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:25 AM   #212
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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So, you'ved mentioned a few times that people really don't fully understand variance.

I think i used to be one of those people until it happened to me.

Care to share a story or two about your worst (poker related) downswings?
When I say people don't understand variance, I'm not just talking about those who have never run so bad they've temporarily lost all confidence in their own abilities or in the game itself, those who have become somewhat spooked/superstitious despite being incredibly logical thinkers in general, those who have literally wanted to cry on occasion after walking away from the table after yet another long shot felt, those who have become self-destructive in their personal lives to some degree in a subconscious attempt to cope with their growing obsession with how unlucky they've been/how much money they've run through, etc, etc, etc... There are actually a decent amount of people/survivors who have been through all this who still reg live 5-10+, and you can usually spot them pretty easily- "like a dog who has been beaten, the sparkle is missing from their eyes" ('The Malakas', a little known but formerly awesome IMO San Diego band)...

I'm talking more about those who are living on the other side of variance, as well as those who are witnessing others live there and can't even begin to grasp wtf is going on. I believe Phil Galfond talked about this (I'm sure more eloquently than I am) somewhere in a blog or something, that human beings are just conditioned to be extremely results oriented, and always want there to be a reason for the things that happen- the opposite of really understanding/respecting the concept of variance.

While I conceded at the beginning of this post that I believe some people eventually see/understand variance pretty clearly on their own way down, I think people rarely see it/give it enough credit (they prob just don't want to) as others plunge, and almost no one gives it its due respect wrt their own or anyone else's upswings (in any given hand and beyond). People just want there to be a reason things happen...

You see it in sports all the time, "this 4-0 team is the best in the NFL", "this guy is CLUTCH", "this guy can't make the big shot", etc. When really the Arizona Cardinals might have just ran really good (in a lot of ways) at the start of the season, Robert Horry maybe just happened to make a few shots over a ridiculously small sample that maybe he wasn't a huge favorite to make, and maybe Lebron just needed to run the board a few more times himself.


When I'm winning and covering my ridiculous expenses and my roll is also going in the right direction, I'm completely fine being on an island at the table usually as the only one not thinking someone is a fish because they keep losing flips/failing to realize their equity in hands/running into the top of ranges/etc. And at the same time I'm completely fine being the only one not crowning the guy who looks like a hot shot, acts like a hot shot, and who keeps winning flips/over realizing his equity/running into the bottom of ranges/etc. But when I'm downswinging and running like a real ******* in potentially lucrative games (like I have been for the last couple weeks, whaaaa!), I start to feel a bit isolated and tilted- even though I really shouldn't.

Variance (and there is a lot of it in full ring nl, and a ton more afaik in other games) is the reason why poker never dies. Bad players (who are taking much the worst of it obv) can win for weeks, months, years, rewarding bad habits and turning them into huge leaks that will eventually take on lot of water. And good players otoh, who construct good and accurate ranges and take pretty optimal lines against them, can lose for a very long time as well, often making them quit or become confidence shattered break even or worse players themselves... We (those who can learn to actually see the forest for the trees AND take a good beating every now and then with no one to sympathize or even understand what really happened- and then get back on our feet) should really make our peace with variance, if not fully embrace it as a necessary evil. IMO.

Now I'm going to go downstairs and get it in with a range of TT+ AQ+, but I'll have AK, and the guy who wins all the money every time we are in a hand will be capped at like 99/AJ (because he just flatted a late position super wide open on the button) will 4bet shove with no fe and turn over 77. We will run it twice, he will scoop, everyone will be like "that's poker", and I will reload and rinse and repeat...

(Or... I'll chop or win the flip, or maybe show up with the better part of my range against his hand and I'll hold- like I have done soooooo many times before but don't always remember, and I'll be like, "yeah, poker is awesome, I'm a really good player )

Variance rant/

I hope you start crushing Bo- I know you do irl (where it matters).
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:50 AM   #213
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Thanks DGAF, that makes me feel better.

Now that its 2012 and the game has changed, how much do you find yourself swinging intrasession now, and how much for like the 25% of swingiest sessions?
Without having my spreadsheet in front of me, I'd say my swings are cut in half in general comparing 2012 to 2010, so like 500 bbs in a typical session. And that might be a little high tbh. Games are sooo different, and I buyin a lot shorter on average than I used to for a bunch of reasons. I also have a stop loss now. God, am I turning into a nit?
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Old 11-15-2012, 01:59 AM   #214
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I don't know if he was on coke or not, I'd guess a little weed if anything. I think he could have been a little smarter by not flipping over a card until the river or something. I am pretty sure he offered the other guy button every hand but that wasn't enough.
I will play someone hu and spot them the button erryhand if I have a legit tell on them or if we are going to be deep and I think they will play way too fit or fold. Flipping a card over has to be way worse lol, and I'd need to be pretty fired up on something to do it.
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Old 11-15-2012, 05:54 PM   #215
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Awesome response. I wasnt really looking for anything in particular, just hoping to hear your thoughts on variance. And you delivered in a big way.

This thread, along w Limon's, should be required reading for anyone who wants to understand what its like to live a life playing live poker.

Like you said, as good winning players, we need to appreciate and be thankful for the variance. (as hard as it is)

Conversly, we need to embrace the recreational players and regs that we have significant edges over. They are the customer and the customer is always right. Its as simple as that.

Developing the skill to have the right attitude towards those two things is as or more important than developing any poker skills in my opinion.

I think its worthwhile to fight the good fight in respect to leading by example on how to act at the table. Lately ive noticed people behaving better in general. I hope its rubbing off.

I often think about how poker tends to attract a certain type of person, often lacking in empathy, selfish, and narcisisstic. Often, these people are attracted or obsessed with the game for a bigger reason beyond the mental stimulation and challenge. The beauty of it, is that poker teaches you about acceptance, empathy, and suffering fools in a strange and beautiful way. In life, we're often attracted to things that are there to teach us our biggest life lessons.
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Old 11-15-2012, 06:53 PM   #216
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

DGAF's response on variance was right on, and reminded me of couple of encounters at WSOP this year with a couple of old friends/opponents who've been nothing but poker players for at least twenty years plus. Both I'd call 5-10 - 10-20 level pros for the most part (though I played a lot of 25-50 PLH with both of them back when that was the standard big bet game).

One, Billy O, has come to peace with the fluctuations of variance IMO. I know he has seen some real high highs (won a ranch once in a game) but I've also personally seen him take major bad beats for 10K+ plus in a hand on more than one occasion, and suffer extended downswings, without ever losing his cool. And after all those years of ups and downs he is still keeping on keeping on, winning and losing with a smile and winning more than he loses.

The other guy I used to call Machine Gun Tommy, and he was one of the very toughest and most confident and agressive opponents I can recall back in the day - but when we met this year I was really surprised to see that as DGAF put it he was "like a dog who has been beaten, the sparkle is missing from their eyes". I'm pretty sure he did not suddenly forget how to play good poker, but I think he may have failed to deal effectively with variance.
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Old 11-15-2012, 07:08 PM   #217
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

DGAF, I've been trying to figure out a BR management plan that works for me. I'd love to here your thoughts!

Specifically; I have always kept a life roll(money for bills, food, clothes, fun). The problem for me is I feel bad doing anything fun bc it's my poker/bill money. I really do want to separate the two. So, I will have a BR and "my" money.

I have taken some pretty aggressive shots and although my bills have been paid etc. I feel like I don't have much to show for it. I want to be building my br and paying myself at the same time. I haven't been able to decide on a % though.

Do you have a bankroll and pay yourself out of the profits? if so how often/much?

Thanks
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Old 11-16-2012, 04:14 AM   #218
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

i want to buy your action next time u challenge someone to hu4rolls
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Old 11-16-2012, 10:43 AM   #219
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

You da man DGAF

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I have a pretty weird memory. I can't remember anything I'm supposed to, but I can remember the 2 significant hands you and I played prob 4 years ago now.
Haha, I'm the exact same. Funny to read this.

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Dgaf your hu challenges had me lol'ing because it reminded me of something I saw a couple of years ago. One of the regs at my casino who talks a ton of crap and regularly challenges them to hu matches is challenged to a match by someone who happened to win the wsop main this year. Now loud crap talker is no idiot so he backs out, so the champ offers to play with one card facing up. Obviously the champ loses, but it was hilarious to watch the whole thing unfold.
This is pretty ridiculous. It would be almost impossible to win playing like this. I think this would be a bigger edge than giving someone a 5th card in PLO or something along those lines.
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Old 11-16-2012, 02:49 PM   #220
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Is the champ of this year's wsop any good?
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:02 PM   #221
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Is the champ of this year's wsop any good?
He's the best player in the world, ldo.
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:12 PM   #222
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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He's the best player in the world, ldo.
At least in popular perception. Though I gather that this year's champ is actually a pretty good player.
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:56 PM   #223
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I have a pretty weird memory. I can't remember anything I'm supposed to, but I can remember the 2 significant hands you and I played prob 4 years ago now.
Quote: By Jimmy VV
Haha, I'm the exact same. Funny to read this.

I'm in the same boat and as I told someone recently not sure if that's a blessing or a curse. When I ran into "Machine Gun Tommy" at WSOP the very first thing that came to mind was two hands we played at least 10 years ago, one when he flopped a straight against my top set, another when I totally misplayed a set over set situation and pretty much won the minimum. He was so dispirited about his runbad when we talked I brought up those two hands just to cheer him up and he looked at me like I was crazy to remember them.
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Old 11-16-2012, 07:48 PM   #224
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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DGAF, I've been trying to figure out a BR management plan that works for me. I'd love to here your thoughts!

Specifically; I have always kept a life roll(money for bills, food, clothes, fun). The problem for me is I feel bad doing anything fun bc it's my poker/bill money. I really do want to separate the two. So, I will have a BR and "my" money.

I have taken some pretty aggressive shots and although my bills have been paid etc. I feel like I don't have much to show for it. I want to be building my br and paying myself at the same time. I haven't been able to decide on a % though.

Do you have a bankroll and pay yourself out of the profits? if so how often/much?

Thanks
1. Yolo- don't feel bad doing anything fun. It feels good to torch off money on occasion and it makes the world go around (the strip bar economy, the night club economy, the sporting event economy, etc are all dependent on people spending money they dont need to, and the people earning in those economies then stimulate other economies when they spend, and so on...) so go for it IMO.

2. It's not about paying yourself a %. It's about paying yourself as much as you need to live the life you want to live, and then keeping the rest somewhat liquid in safety deposit boxes, banks, investments, etc.

3. Always be building your roll! Don't get complacent once you become officially "rolled" for the stakes you want to play. Being "over-rolled" is better. And being "over-over-rolled" is better than that. And so on...

4. Someday you will want to retire, or invest heavily in a business or property or something else that can provide you with another stream of income. Or someday the games might dry up for a while, or you might be sent on the downswing of a lifetime . Be ready...

5. I'm hardly an expert on finances (or anything in the real world for that matter) so take this post fwiw.

GL
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Old 11-16-2012, 08:22 PM   #225
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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At least in popular perception. Though I gather that this year's champ is actually a pretty good player.
I dont know much about him personally, but I do know a lot of good players think he's very good, fwtw. And I believe he was a consistent winner online? Regardless, he comes off well in his thread in hsnl and on tv from what i saw, so I'm happy for him...

Only watched a few hands of the WSOP coverage and Lon i think brought up that GM was down to like 2 bbs on day 5 or something and came all the way back to have all the chips. To which Antonio said (and I'm pretty sure he wasn't leveling) something like, "that just goes to show what focus and discipline can do for you at the poker table."

Edit: I'll be rooting for a charismatic fish or a girl (any girl, even a female "Internet kid") to ship it next year. Would be sooooo good for live cash games and flukaments.
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