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Old 02-29-2016, 02:52 PM   #1701
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

3 blinds has a lot of psychological value in loosening up a game in that players know they are supposed to play more hands with more blinds. So maybe now with the additional dead money, theory would suggest that you are supposed to open an additional 1% or 2% from first to act FR, most players have no clue (hell I have no clue) and you can see for yourself that the average player is adding like 10%+ instead.
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Old 02-29-2016, 03:36 PM   #1702
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by Aesah View Post
3 blinds has a lot of psychological value in loosening up a game in that players know they are supposed to play more hands with more blinds. So maybe now with the additional dead money, theory would suggest that you are supposed to open an additional 1% or 2% from first to act FR, most players have no clue (hell I have no clue) and you can see for yourself that the average player is adding like 10%+ instead.
I agree with you. I also want to add something that may or may not have been addressed.

People in blinds feel obligated to not fold since they are invested. They also take less breaks because blinds come around faster and they play way more marginal hands than 2. It's like 3 blinds is better than 2, 4 is better than 3, and so on and so forth.

When people have the urge to "defend" their dead money in the pot, it generally makes for a better looser game. More blinds, more dead money.

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Old 02-29-2016, 04:23 PM   #1703
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

The $25 on the button is an interesting prop but I would rather pay someone OOP then incentive the Bn to be more aggro
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Old 02-29-2016, 06:00 PM   #1704
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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The $25 on the button is an interesting prop but I would rather pay someone OOP then incentive the Bn to be more aggro
Most home games I play do this. No blinds and button straddle. I agree that forced action from blinds is better than button but action in home games generally don't need this since the action is organically pretty good.

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Old 03-01-2016, 03:25 AM   #1705
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

This is somewhat off-track, but what's with the talk of Bellagio 10/20/40 being a tough game hard to beat?

I mean, for those who've played it over a large sample, what's so tough about it that I'm not seeing?(over a smallish sample)

And I'm nobody special.. it's not a soft game but is it that tough? No.
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Old 03-01-2016, 03:02 PM   #1706
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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This is somewhat off-track, but what's with the talk of Bellagio 10/20/40 being a tough game hard to beat?

I mean, for those who've played it over a large sample, what's so tough about it that I'm not seeing?(over a smallish sample)

And I'm nobody special.. it's not a soft game but is it that tough? No.
I just said it was the toughest nlh game in america.. can you think of a tougher game? Obv it's still beatable..
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Old 03-01-2016, 08:29 PM   #1707
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by 663366 View Post
This is somewhat off-track, but what's with the talk of Bellagio 10/20/40 being a tough game hard to beat?

I mean, for those who've played it over a large sample, what's so tough about it that I'm not seeing?(over a smallish sample)

And I'm nobody special.. it's not a soft game but is it that tough? No.
Like everywhere, the lineup varies a ton so the game can't be discussed generally with any real accuracy.
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Old 03-02-2016, 05:01 AM   #1708
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by spino1i View Post
Dgaf, if you think 3 blind games are good, why aren't you playing the 10/20/40 nl that goes almost daily at bellagio? You should be licking your chops to play in a game like that right?

I guess I'm wondering this, why is it better to play a 2/5/10 nl game at aria that you juiced up with a straddle vs just playing 5/t nl at bellagio? Is that extra 2 dollar blind is really going to make up for the much shorter stack sizes?
Late reply but given the choice I would play a 2/5 nl game at aria with a straddle over 5/10 nl at bellagio any day of the week. The 5/10 game at b will almost always be wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy nittier and not much deeper.
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Old 03-02-2016, 05:47 AM   #1709
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Have not caught up in detail but i think its a life leak to not be able to drink moderately and being able to function / do basic math / make good decisions.

I am not a pro but i am a winning rec player in my game and regfish love to play w me and give me action and part of it is cuz i drink and zero EV gamble on the reg. They give noticeably less action to the quiet headphone backpack pro and literally even make comments like "I'll call this hand vs HH but not vs you!"
+1 to getting more action than anti social turds

0 ev gambles, and just being nice funny and friendly can get you tons of action, as well as invited to great (often rake free) home games
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Old 03-03-2016, 10:15 AM   #1710
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Played some 3 blind last night, game ended up not being good. We switched back to 10/25 and game was much better but only because 2 new guys came to the game by chance.

Will try again next time. It definitely has potential but it wasn't the right lineup yesterday.
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Old 03-03-2016, 08:24 PM   #1711
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

You need the right lineup and right stack depth
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Old 03-03-2016, 09:22 PM   #1712
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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You need the right lineup and right stack depth

For sure

Will definitely try/suggest again,probably a ton over the summer during wsop.

The lineup was too good pro filled

Honestly I was the 4/6 best player at the table and 4/5 once one guy left.


Shortly after 2 fish came over (after we changed the game to 10/25).
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Old 03-04-2016, 02:32 PM   #1713
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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bobby hoff hated the round of straddles. he got me to hate it but he could have been wrong. i never really deeply thought about it.

whenever anyone asked for a round of straddles bobby would just growl in his southern draw, "if you want to straddle, straddle, i aint holding your hand".
I'm really surprised Bobby didn't like straddles, because iirc he was a fan of antes? I'm certainly not going to be quick to say he just wasn't thinking about it correctly (because he was sharp af obv), but I've been thinking about it a lot since you posted and I'm still confident that at least today's nl really needs 3 blinds- as someone alluded to, maybe the gap is simply how spewy people used to be pre back in the day vs how nitty everyone is (esp in ep/mp) today...

In a perfect world* imo the straddle would go on in any full ring game where there wasn't already a ton of action pre/people weren't already playing way too loose. Though it varies quite a bit regionally and obv there are a ton of differences as you climb stakes, I'd guess the overall % of 2-5+ full ring nl games in this day and age that need straddle/3 blinds is ~ 85% (and rising). Otherwise it's really not a ton different from bingo because the sample/volume of hands vpip'd is just way too low for the most skilled players to win consistently enough.

And then ofc short-handed games (< 7 players) don't really need straddle imo because the overall table vpip inherently goes way up...

---

Though the majority of the reason I think straddle is necessary/I'm campaigning for it so hard is because I think overall vpip has just gotten too low for how slowly hands are dealt by live dealers (we came to actually "play" poker, not sit there for 40 minutes without playing 1 hand), some of it has to do with just how different being deep is today vs how it was back in the day.

Back in the day people would constantly put themselves in spots where you could just raise a portion of the deep effective stacks and they would either have to fold or be committed (you knew if they called the raise they were never folding the rest- and they never did). You could also bluff an insane amount overall because people weren't pot controlling/betting the polarized ranges they do now (and their checking ranges were just so much weaker/more capped).

^^^ 2 huge things/edges available have all but disappeared over time. So deep effective stacks really mean **** compared to what they used to. And cutting the stacks in half opens up the game so much that the volume increase of actually getting to play poker (and not fold pre) completely trumps any deepstack edge that may have been available.


*since we don't live in a perfect world where people will know when to put the straddle on and when to take it off, and people suck at understanding how to post when they miss their straddle/blinds, and some dealers are such nits that they HAVE TO deal utg in even if he's gone from the table and they also CAN'T LET YOU straddle from UTG1 in that scenario, and most importantly because games need straddles/a 3rd blind a lot more often than they don't imo, I'm pushing for plaques. Make this **** official. It's a 3-blind game now, straddle (4th blind) if you want.
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Old 03-04-2016, 03:27 PM   #1714
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by Gilmour View Post
The games nature changes all the time, and it should be in the nature of every good poker player to make maximum use of the tools available and adapt to how the games are playing out.

When the games are drying up compared to just 4-5 years ago, and the stackoffranges are tighter in general (just to give a couple of examples) the straddle is a brilliant tool to get the game out of the muck. Its an almost idiotproof chance to make sure the average pot get bigger, to widen peoples ranges that they put money in the pot with and to raise the chance that we see some stackoffs = somebody gets stuck easier and possibly starts tilting/spewing.


Actually its pretty interesting when i think back through my years of playing ive pretty much never bumped across a player i would label as really good refuse to straddle. Its the oposite, the best players i have been playing with have been the ones to try getting the mandatory straddle going.
Good post.

People (good players and bad players) typically play poker because it is an action skill game, and they enjoy the strategy/battling/big pots/etc. Only a small % of the players (at least at the stakes we are discussing in this sub-forum) enjoy just sitting there and folding and bull****ting and maybe hoping to "get hot".

---

The first level of the WSOP Main Event is 75-150, and you start with 50k chips (333 bbs) 9-handed. This is pretty parallel imo to a standard Aria 5-10 nl game wrt stack depth (so many people just default buy in for the 3k cap) and # of players obv. Getting stacked at this level of the tournament is considered HILARIOUS, and a lot of the players who aren't playing for their first time or on stake or whatever really don't mind skipping it all together because of how insanely nitty/slow it is...

The 2nd level is 150-300. This is close to being parallel with adding the straddle to an Aria 5-10 game. Same amount of players, ~ same amount of bbs, just a different amount of people in the blinds/out of the blinds...

The 3rd level is 150-300 with a 25 ante. Though also not exactly parallel with a straddled 5-10 game at aria, I think it's the closest the tournament has to offer/close enough because of the 167 bb stacks and the "extra juice" in addition to the 2 blinds...

AFAIK most people agree "a tournament doesn't really start until the antes kick in" ---> levels 1 and 2 (1 especially) of the Main are kind of a joke. I often feel the same exact way when I'm playing 9-handed until we get the straddle on. And I think a lot of others (pros and recs) feel this way as well, they just haven't thought about it as critically/objectively/extensively as I have (they prob have better things to think about/they aren't on their 18000th or whatever hour of live nl like I am ).

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Old 03-04-2016, 05:08 PM   #1715
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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The first level of the WSOP Main Event is 75-150, and you start with 50k chips (333 bbs) 9-handed. This is pretty parallel imo to a standard Aria 5-10 nl game wrt stack depth (so many people just default buy in for the 3k cap) and # of players obv. Getting stacked at this level of the tournament is considered HILARIOUS, and a lot of the players who aren't playing for their first time or on stake or whatever really don't mind skipping it all together because of how insanely nitty/slow it is...
I'm enjoying the discussion of the straddle - I agree with you in part, but not entirely. I think sometimes it's good and sometimes it's actually bad.

Keep in mind that in tournaments, a lot of people are opening 2x-2.5x the BB, whereas in cash games 3x-5x is more standard, and that has a big impact on how much of the stacks are in play.

IMO the sweet spot for stack size for live cash games is 140bb-200bb. At those stack sizes, we have a good balance between skill and action. You can play more hands and apply more pressure, and you can work the stacks in by the river in many cases. So if you're in a game where the stacks are 300bb+ deep, cutting them in half with a mandatory straddle is going to bring them in line with where they are optimal. That's definitely +EV.

However, cutting them from 100bb to 50bb IMO is not going to be +EV, and in fact may be -EV in a lot of lineups. Most people don't adjust much/enough to the straddle, but a lot of losing players are stacking off too wide at 100bb... However, if they don't adjust at all going down to 50bb, they're actually stacking off with a range that is closer to optimal. Of course, if you're in a game with weak-tight players, then cutting the stack sizes down can be hugely +EV if they won't adjust - but they also probably won't agree to straddle.

The problem is, not many people seem to understand when the straddle is good and when it is bad, which is why I am enjoying the conversation in here. It's interesting to get some different perspectives on it.

There are also obviously a ton of intangibles, and if you can force a couple nits to leave the game because they refuse to straddle, keep some winning players taking a shot at a higher stake out, or get some people stuck who can't handle being stuck and go on insane tilt, then there is some extra value (sometimes tons of it) in straddling.

Edited to add: DGAF I'm curious if you agree about the optimal stack sizes in live cash being 140-200bb?
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Old 03-04-2016, 08:34 PM   #1716
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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After much thought, straddle makes pots bigger but it doesn't really increase the stakes/certainly doesn't double them.
This thread cero_z and I touch on this as well...
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Old 03-05-2016, 03:00 AM   #1717
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Any of your ever tried this?

Button physically puts a mandatory chip onto the actual button. It works well with a 25 chip at 5/10. If button doesn't win pot, button and chip(s) move around and next person ponies up. If button wins the hand, he wins the money on the button. Only button can win the money on the button. Button can't win what's on the button by splitting the pot so running it twice is minus ev for button. If player misses button then they have to put 50 (max) on next time it gets to them. This isn't a straddle of any sort.

Unlocks nitty games and poor nitty regs always fail to adjust and become the value that their skill level deserves.

Obv better in deep stack games.
I'm all for anything like this as long as there isn't a lot of turnover and it doesn't take a lot of time to explain to a new guy/he can't wreck the whole thing by not doing it. And like someone else said, it's way better (in general) to have the extra money oop obv.
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Old 03-05-2016, 03:10 AM   #1718
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by Aesah View Post
3 blinds has a lot of psychological value in loosening up a game in that players know they are supposed to play more hands with more blinds. So maybe now with the additional dead money, theory would suggest that you are supposed to open an additional 1% or 2% from first to act FR, most players have no clue (hell I have no clue) and you can see for yourself that the average player is adding like 10%+ instead.
First to act has 5 behind vs 6 behind and that's significant imo (in addition to the extra money out there).
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Old 03-05-2016, 03:25 AM   #1719
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Late reply but given the choice I would play a 2/5 nl game at aria with a straddle over 5/10 nl at bellagio any day of the week. The 5/10 game at b will almost always be wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy nittier and not much deeper.
Oh, he was just being a hater. You are prob right about those games though. Either way, when I happen to be at Aria at 5 am and decide to play poker and there is a 2-5 game going and the only thing on bravo that is bigger is 5-10 at bellagio- and there is a list for that game and no other no limit games to play over there, I am never ever ever walking over there for that ****, straddle or no straddle at the aria.
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Old 03-05-2016, 03:35 AM   #1720
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Played some 3 blind last night, game ended up not being good. We switched back to 10/25 and game was much better but only because 2 new guys came to the game by chance.

Will try again next time. It definitely has potential but it wasn't the right lineup yesterday.
You were already short-handed and 10-25 is a big game these days. I would have waited until it filled up a bit...
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Old 03-05-2016, 03:51 AM   #1721
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Oh, he was just being a hater. You are prob right about those games though. Either way, when I happen to be at Aria at 5 am and decide to play poker and there is a 2-5 game going and the only thing on bravo that is bigger is 5-10 at bellagio- and there is a list for that game and no other no limit games to play over there, I am never ever ever walking over there for that ****, straddle or no straddle at the aria.
Agreed. And actually what's worse than 1 game going at the Bellagio at 5 am is 2 games bc then theres no way in hell youre getting into the good game.

But when there is only 1 game going with no list theres always the chance the nits left for the night and some randoms decided to play

depending on where I'm staying, if I'm playing at the aria and it's like 5-7 am and the game breaks I'll pass back thru the bellagio. Usually it's not worth it but maybe 10% of the time you end up in an amazing game.
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Old 03-05-2016, 04:29 AM   #1722
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I'm enjoying the discussion of the straddle - I agree with you in part, but not entirely. I think sometimes it's good and sometimes it's actually bad.

Keep in mind that in tournaments, a lot of people are opening 2x-2.5x the BB, whereas in cash games 3x-5x is more standard, and that has a big impact on how much of the stacks are in play.

IMO the sweet spot for stack size for live cash games is 140bb-200bb. At those stack sizes, we have a good balance between skill and action. You can play more hands and apply more pressure, and you can work the stacks in by the river in many cases. So if you're in a game where the stacks are 300bb+ deep, cutting them in half with a mandatory straddle is going to bring them in line with where they are optimal. That's definitely +EV.

However, cutting them from 100bb to 50bb IMO is not going to be +EV, and in fact may be -EV in a lot of lineups. Most people don't adjust much/enough to the straddle, but a lot of losing players are stacking off too wide at 100bb... However, if they don't adjust at all going down to 50bb, they're actually stacking off with a range that is closer to optimal. Of course, if you're in a game with weak-tight players, then cutting the stack sizes down can be hugely +EV if they won't adjust - but they also probably won't agree to straddle.

The problem is, not many people seem to understand when the straddle is good and when it is bad, which is why I am enjoying the conversation in here. It's interesting to get some different perspectives on it.

There are also obviously a ton of intangibles, and if you can force a couple nits to leave the game because they refuse to straddle, keep some winning players taking a shot at a higher stake out, or get some people stuck who can't handle being stuck and go on insane tilt, then there is some extra value (sometimes tons of it) in straddling.

Edited to add: DGAF I'm curious if you agree about the optimal stack sizes in live cash being 140-200bb?
I agree. But I think it's good a lot more often than it is bad, and if I could only have it one way/one plaque, I'd def take straddle/3 blinds. Though people pretty much only open 2.5 to 4x in games I play in and they are a lot deeper on avg than 100 bbs...

140-200 bbs being the nl sweet spot in general is something I cannot argue with. I like that depth plenty when I'm playing 10-20+ (it's obv the same at 5-10 lol but I'm a degen and the actual dollar amount just seems too small even though I am far from rich ). Having said that, idc about stack depth/being deep nearly as much as I used to for the reasons mentioned a few posts up.

I JUST WANT VOLUME. I WANT TO ACTUALLY PLAY (NOT FOLD) AS MANY HANDS/HOUR AS POSSIBLE. AND NOT JUST BECAUSE I'M AN ACTION JUNKY... I WANT THE RESULTS EACH SESSION TO BE SLIGHTLY MORE ACCURATE.

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Old 03-05-2016, 04:32 AM   #1723
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

At one of the 5/10 games last night we were playing 5/10/20 ($20 UTG is not live, just a blind raise). One part I didn't like is they still enforced the max buyin of $1500, so if you get short you can only top off to 75 "big blinds"

Ex:
7 handed, 10/20 TAG reg ($1500 stack) opens to $60 from BTN. Fish ($3k) calls from SB. We ($2.5k) 3b $220 from BB AQo. BTN and SB call

F $680 AT8r
We bet less than half pot get 2 calls
T $1600ish 2x
We bet half pot, BTN sticks in his last $900, fish folds
He shows ATo

(Maybe I should've made it bigger pre idk, but I'm happy with him putting in 1/7th of his stack that's going to be dominated by all my value 3b hands)

Now I can only top off to $1500 and am playing 75bb poker trying to get my money back (I later opened button with 88, got 3b by an aggro 10/20 reg from the "straddle" and 4b/called and got stacked)

Sorry if it came off as me posting as if this was a strat thread, just thought it was somewhat relevant
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Old 03-05-2016, 04:38 AM   #1724
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by jlocdog View Post
This thread cero_z and I touch on this as well...
I look forward to delving into this during a lull in my upcoming poker trip or right after. Pretty sure cero wouldn't straddle when I played with him a couple years ago .

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Old 03-05-2016, 04:48 AM   #1725
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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At one of the 5/10 games last night we were playing 5/10/20 ($20 UTG is not live, just a blind raise). One part I didn't like is they still enforced the max buyin of $1500, so if you get short you can only top off to 75 "big blinds"

Ex:
7 handed, 10/20 TAG reg ($1500 stack) opens to $60 from BTN. Fish ($3k) calls from SB. We ($2.5k) 3b $220 from BB AQo. BTN and SB call

F $680 AT8r
We bet less than half pot get 2 calls
T $1600ish 2x
We bet half pot, BTN sticks in his last $900, fish folds
He shows ATo

(Maybe I should've made it bigger pre idk, but I'm happy with him putting in 1/7th of his stack that's going to be dominated by all my value 3b hands)

Now I can only top off to $1500 and am playing 75bb poker trying to get my money back (I later opened button with 88, got 3b by an aggro 10/20 reg from the "straddle" and 4b/called and got stacked)

Sorry if it came off as me posting as if this was a strat thread, just thought it was somewhat relevant
obv this was commerce

a few things:

-you can re-buy more than 1500 almost always
-it seems like you are being a bit results oriented
-stop trying to "get your money back", that's just silly/it's all 1 long session
-I'm no 75 bb expert but isn't flatting the 88 to the 3b >>>> ?

but yeah, commerce 5-10 prob doesn't need the 20 near as much as other places do...

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