Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-14-2019, 09:40 PM   #6451
icanadd
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pardoned by the Variance Police
Posts: 202
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

I would recommend slow burn by slate. Good history of watergate. Some stunning similarities to current events.

Pod Save the word. Good pod about international events.

Planet Money by NPR
Marketplace by NPR
Make me smart by NPR

I also like Gambling with and Edge.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
icanadd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2019, 10:52 PM   #6452
icanadd
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pardoned by the Variance Police
Posts: 202
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurshy View Post
A big displaced (by ai/robots) underclass/ middle class, will lead to social unrest and a battle between people and ai/robots which leads to the awareness by ai that we are parisitic and the enemy. It does not end well.

- Sigh
This is the Terminator option for the future. A solid possibility.

We also have the Matrix possibility that we are already living in a simulation.

Or the Borg possibility that man and technology implants merge until we are inseparable from it in some collective.

My money is on the Borg since everyone is already inseparable from their phone. That is assuming we are not already in the Matrix. None of them seem good. Though better than some Fallout like post nuclear apocalypse.

In all seriousness though we have seen dozens of these technology transformations in the last 100 years. All of them result in higher quality of life. Sure it sucked for the guy who was an expert at building and designing typewriters when the PC came out. That change was hard on him/her but I do not think any of us want to go back to using paper, white out and the US postal service to talk about poker.

Electricity put candle makers and kerosene delivery people out of jobs. Cars eliminated the need for every downtown to have a livery stable and grooms.

This idea that life will be worse does not make any sense to me personally. The jobs will be different. More services, more code, more technicians and operators of equipment. Less hauling boxes or repetitive soul sucking jobs that most people hate anyway. Hard transitions on some sure. A worse overall standard of living I doubt it. Education will be vital. But the internet is already making it more available and democratized than ever.

Does any of us really want to go back to life before Apple Amazon and Microsoft? I have never once been to Vegas and heard someone say life was better before all these hotels had air conditioning.

I do not know what the future will bring but I bet it is amazing.
icanadd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2019, 11:45 PM   #6453
DrTJO
adept
 
DrTJO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,182
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by icanadd View Post

This idea that life will be worse does not make any sense to me personally. The jobs will be different. More services, more code, more technicians and operators of equipment. Less hauling boxes or repetitive soul sucking jobs that most people hate anyway. Hard transitions on some sure. A worse overall standard of living I doubt it. Education will be vital. But the internet is already making it more available and democratized than ever.
Saying that AI is having (and will continue to have) a highly significant impact on the economy doesn't mean that one is against technology or even being a technological determinist (in the apocalyptic sense).

What the data says, according to Yang and those who have modelled the short term future on this issue (such as MIT, McKinsey's, etc.,) is that life will be better for a minority and worse for the majority, employment wise. The evidence shows that those occupations where AI is having the most immediate impact (such as trucking, retail, office work or what equates to nearly 50% of the workforce) contain workers who are very poor at adapting to and retraining for other industries (worse than a 15% success rate).

The average truck driver is 49, male, without a college degree, and with a host of health problems. Hard to see someone like this learning how to write code or adapt to college/training environment.

I like your optimism, but have you looked at the data on this issue, beyond your immediate experience? This data is generally longitudinal in nature and therefore based on a decent sample size.

---

Podcasts:

Fivethirtyeight
Thinking Poker
Sam Harris
DrTJO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 12:33 AM   #6454
YGOchamp
old hand
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,399
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTJO View Post
Saying that AI is having (and will continue to have) a highly significant impact on the economy doesn't mean that one is against technology or even being a technological determinist (in the apocalyptic sense).

What the data says, according to Yang and those who have modelled the short term future on this issue (such as MIT, McKinsey's, etc.,) is that life will be better for a minority and worse for the majority, employment wise. The evidence shows that those occupations where AI is having the most immediate impact (such as trucking, retail, office work or what equates to nearly 50% of the workforce) contain workers who are very poor at adapting to and retraining for other industries (worse than a 15% success rate).

The average truck driver is 49, male, without a college degree, and with a host of health problems. Hard to see someone like this learning how to write code or adapt to college/training environment.

I like your optimism, but have you looked at the data on this issue, beyond your immediate experience? This data is generally longitudinal in nature and therefore based on a decent sample size.

Very good points, I've had very similar thoughts.

I don't think people are understanding the reality of what's happening with technology and how it will have such a dramatic shift on employment. The new AI will indeed open up some new jobs, but those are skilled jobs. There will always be a large amount of low-skill workers, which is what automation is going to significantly cut down on in the next 10-20 years.

Without being able to work a cashier or drive a truck, they will have absolutely nothing. Which leads into my next point...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurshy View Post
A big displaced (by ai/robots) underclass/ middle class, will lead to social unrest
the second part of this quote was about humans vs AI, which is possible, but not the immediate concern.

When AI begins to drastically shrink the job market. the unemployment rate will soar and people will be starving on the streets -- this will force "something" to happen. People will not be complacent in their destruction -- saying that they'll "just adapt" is naive, you cannot adapt to a nonexistent job market, especially as an unskilled laborer. If there is not government intervention (whether it be in the form of UBI or something else), class warfare does not seem too far-fetched.

The tricky part is the timing of UBI. There's clearly not enough support for it right now (which makes sense, seeing as there's not a large need for it right now).
So, it's a matter of what happens in that "in-between period", where jobs begin to shrink due to AI, but not yet enough to justify implementing UBI.

As far as the merits of UBI go in relation to creating incentives (or rather, a debate over socialism) -- I don't really know whether or not UBI is beneficial long-term for a society wrt having productive citizens.
In the short term though, it will sustain the bottom half of the workforce and prevent a proletariat uprising.
Maybe they don't care about the bottom half though, and you end up with something like "the purge"

Anywho, assuming AI does begin to eliminate most of the job market, I support an "automation tax" for businesses heavily profiting of the increased efficiency they achieved, as a means of funding UBI

Last edited by YGOchamp; 02-15-2019 at 12:39 AM.
YGOchamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 12:50 AM   #6455
TimeBomb
old hand
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,725
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

This reminds me of something I saw recently on automated car washes putting people out of work. Most people prefer a hand wash, but with rising labor costs and unions car wash owners are finding it cheaper to automate. The people losing their jobs are unskilled workers who would rather work at or below minimum wage.
TimeBomb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 01:42 AM   #6456
icanadd
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pardoned by the Variance Police
Posts: 202
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTJO View Post
Saying that AI is having (and will continue to have) a highly significant impact on the economy doesn't mean that one is against technology or even being a technological determinist (in the apocalyptic sense).

What the data says, according to Yang and those who have modelled the short term future on this issue (such as MIT, McKinsey's, etc.,) is that life will be better for a minority and worse for the majority, employment wise. The evidence shows that those occupations where AI is having the most immediate impact (such as trucking, retail, office work or what equates to nearly 50% of the workforce) contain workers who are very poor at adapting to and retraining for other industries (worse than a 15% success rate).

The average truck driver is 49, male, without a college degree, and with a host of health problems. Hard to see someone like this learning how to write code or adapt to college/training environment.

I like your optimism, but have you looked at the data on this issue, beyond your immediate experience? This data is generally longitudinal in nature and therefore based on a decent sample size.

---

Podcasts:

Fivethirtyeight
Thinking Poker
Sam Harris
I have looked at some of the data but am by no means an expert. Every time technology shifts there are winners and losers. I do not want to trivialize the impact on peoples lives when these shifts happen. I live in the mid west so their are now shortage of examples of towns that use to have large auto/mfg plants that are shells of what they were.

The mid to low skilled workers in these places see the quality of life go down and have a hard time finding a job at the same income level. I just do not think this is new. Look at steel production. We make more steel in the usa than we did in the 50/60/70's with about fraction of the work force.

I was in a ford plant a few years ago one line had been retooled had robots and 4 workers. The same product on the old line had 40 workers. This was 7-8 years ago. Ford might have sold something like 3M cars in 1990 and something close to 7M cars now. With less people per car for sure now. But still plenty of employees. The automation in steel and the auto industry did hurt and displace people. It also made making both of those things more efficient which ultimately drives up quality of life overall but definitely not for all. The current 49yo truck driver is not going to code camp. He is handling freight at UPS for 30% of his previous hourly in many cases.

Also automation is possible for a lot of jobs but a long way from being practical. So while I do think that AI will change a lot of jobs I do not think it will happen as fast as many are predicting. Many companies do not have the scale to make the up frt costs have a reasonable pay off. While some of these things will become cheep they are not now and are not close to getting that way.

Maybe I am overly optimistic but use Tesla as an example. Massive investments in automation that Musk called a mistake. I think the quote was humans are under rated. I think that in many cases the technology will be additive to people. That the making of things more efficiently will be a good long term thing.

I also think that the shift will not be as fast as predicted. That we will adapt to this change as we have many others. Not without pain. And not without the educated/affluent coming out better than the less educated. I just do not think the change will come so fast we will not adapt. Pain in the generation that is disrupted that will be adapted by the next in many cases.


The amount of technology in elementary schools is astounding compared to when I went. My kids have been using tables since they were 2! They will be better equipped for a high tech world then I ever will be.
icanadd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 03:17 AM   #6457
YGOchamp
old hand
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,399
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by icanadd View Post

The current 49yo truck driver is not going to code camp. He is handling freight at UPS for 30% of his previous hourly in many cases.
And what does he do when not even the freight job, or a cashier job, exists?

There's a difference between accepting a lower quality of life and accepting that you're unable to support yourself/your family.

fwiw I agree that it's going to take a while for this to be a reality, but I think 10-20 years is a reasonable timeframe
YGOchamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 03:42 AM   #6458
DrTJO
adept
 
DrTJO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,182
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by icanadd View Post

I also think that the shift will not be as fast as predicted. That we will adapt to this change as we have many others. Not without pain. And not without the educated/affluent coming out better than the less educated. I just do not think the change will come so fast we will not adapt. Pain in the generation that is disrupted that will be adapted by the next in many cases.
Appreciate that you are writing from the location of the mid-west as well as from an industry that provides a personal insight into this issue. There are certainly benefits to AI in terms of efficiency and productivity and taking a Luddite position is really a lose-lose situation; remaining optimistic about the technology is, without doubt, the best course of action.

But the pain appears to be significant for some already, given the rise in suicide as well as opioid addiction over the recent period, particularly amongst middle-aged males, who are most affected by these changes (life expectancy has dropped in the USA over the last few years largely due to this fact). That's why a UBI makes so much sense---it softens the blow, so that people don't give up hope and remain mobile and self-confident enough to stay connected to their immediate community. Once hope is lost and community connections become brittle, then serious mental and physical health problems emerge, which, in turn, places more stress on social infrastructure, effectively widening the gap between the 'haves and have-nots'.

If more of those affected by AI (and those to be affected in the near future) had your attitude, then the situation wouldn't be as dire, for sure, since these people would accept their circumstances and adapt. In this sense it's great to be talking about it (aside from the fact that DGAF's thread is being somewhat derailed---but, hey, wouldn't be the first time).
DrTJO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 12:48 PM   #6459
Irieguy
veteran
 
Irieguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 3,179
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

This bizarre distopian viewpoint that AI is putting people out of work faster than society can adapt is just silly. Suggesting that it is the reason for the opioid epidemic and a rise in suicide rates is insensitive and stupid.

Icanadd is correct on all points. Failure to see that is simply due to a lack of maturity and experience, and there is no crime in that. But suggesting that the opioid epidemic is in any way related to laborers losing their jobs to computers is crossing the line of human decency. People at risk for opioid dependency need real help. Real social and legislative change is required to lower the death toll. A universal stipend is not the answer, and to suggest as much dilutes the legitimate arguments in favor of UBI.
Irieguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 03:13 PM   #6460
Sho Nuff
newbie
 
Sho Nuff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 48
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
I

I like the AI pivot itt, but also would love more pod recs. I need the **** you can totally get lost in (because I drive so much). I would prefer it to not be super dark though, if at all possible. After 4 hours of a true crime series, I get out of my car and think everyone I see is a murderer. It's so dumb but also just the way I am. I get lost in it...

Thanks man.

Cheers.

If you’re interested in history I would check out ‘Hardcore History’ by Dan Carlin. He’s a world class historian and even better story teller. His best work is probably the ‘Wrath of the Kahns’ series about the Mongul Empire. It used to be free on iTunes but I think you might have to pay now. He has other free content on there though.
Sho Nuff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 10:41 PM   #6461
DrTJO
adept
 
DrTJO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,182
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irieguy View Post
This bizarre distopian viewpoint that AI is putting people out of work faster than society can adapt is just silly. Suggesting that it is the reason for the opioid epidemic and a rise in suicide rates is insensitive and stupid.
There is a growing consensus around the negative impact of AI on employment opportunities in many industries---it is far from a "silly" idea, let alone "bizarre". A number of serious research institutions have considered this issue. So maybe consult their views or at least consider the views of those who cite this information (as I have done/not saying I've much expertise/haven't read enough in this area, to be honest).

The reasons for the opioid epidemic are well-known, with the behaviour of certain pharmaceutical companies being primary in this respect, along with, to a lesser extent, some of those who prescribed this medication. I didn't mean to suggest AI/loss of employment was a primary cause, but more that the opioid epidemic is symptomatic of deeper social issues, which are exacerbated by a loss of purpose and hope in the future.

I don't wish to talk about the causes of suicide, as I'm not a health professional, except to say that major financial stress/loss of hope are significant circumstantial and psychological factors.

By the way, I'm 47 years old and have been treated for depression for a decent portion of my life (including a suicide attempt), so to suggest that I'm neither mature nor experienced, in this regard, is a bit presumptuous.
DrTJO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 11:48 PM   #6462
icanadd
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pardoned by the Variance Police
Posts: 202
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

The opioid crisis is a real, difficult, and complicated medical problem. It has many components and needs real policy change to address it. I don’t have the experience or knowledge to comment on it other than to say I think it is a serious public heath issue and that I hope anyone effected gets the help and support they need.

We as a community should be able to do better.

UBI is an interesting Idea. It deserves debate. I still do not see how we pay for it as it has been presented. A 12% tax is not enough to fully fund social security which has similar components as UBI but for a smaller part of a US citizens lifetime.

Automation and AI will change employment. Automation has been changing it for 150 years or more. It will make life better overall in my opinion.

Part of the reason we made a choice to invest multi M$ in automation where I work is that unemployment is really low right now. The automation is helping to add employment by helping grow the buisness. Less low skilled more middle skilled for which we invest in robust training programs. The talk that AI and automation will eliminate all low skill work is not practical. Combines did not eliminate farmers. They let more food per labor hour be produced. Every grocery store I am in has both self checkout and cashier lanes. They better serve customers that way.

Automation has been improving productivity and quality of life since the industrial revolution. It will change and compliment work. Innovation and services will keep plenty of people employed in my opinion.






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
icanadd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 12:36 AM   #6463
WasitacatIsaw?
newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 19
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
I like the AI pivot itt, but also would love more pod recs.
Dan Carlin’s Hardcore History are all great. The Khan ones were my favorite but looks like you have to buy those now
WasitacatIsaw? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 02:35 PM   #6464
netstorm
old hand
 
netstorm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On the button
Posts: 1,714
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
I like the AI pivot itt, but also would love more pod recs. I need the **** you can totally get lost in (because I drive so much).
"How I built this" by Guy Raz. Pretty inspirational interviews / stories of succesfull entrepeneurs.
netstorm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 04:07 PM   #6465
icanadd
journeyman
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pardoned by the Variance Police
Posts: 202
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

One thing that seems to get missed by the AI will kill all the jobs is that every business needs customers. It is not in companies best interest to eliminate all jobs/sources of income. Instability and uncertainty are not what owners or investors want. They want predictability and return on the investments made.

Take Venezuela as an example. It is a terrible situation for the people. It is also a terrible market to be in. It was a thriving market 10-15 years ago. No one is trying to invest there now.

Now I am not trying to say corporations are into "fair and equitable" sharing of wealth they are not. They do want stable governments and societies though. A stable growing "middle class" is in businesses best interest. A large part of the global economic growth/wealth creation is people moving out of poverty in China, India, Brazil etc. This has created a massive amount of new customers that have at least some disposable income.

The increased efficiency and productivity of technology is one of the driving factors that has allowed this massive migration out of poverty globally. That is part of the reason I think AI and Automation will make the world a better place not a worse one.

The worst places to invest are the ones with the weakest institutions, least amount of infrastructure and highest uncertainty (Think say the Congo). The best places are the countries transitioning out of that to a stable market driven economy (Think China).

Even if business could use only robots and AI it wouldn't since it needs customers. This goes all the way back the Henry Ford paying higher than market wages so that his employees could afford to be customers.

The need for customers is fundamental to the existence of business and I believe a strong structural reason why technology will complement and enhance income not destroy it overall. It will be uneven, and even unfair to a point but not de-stabilizing. Individuals will experience negative and positive impact of this change

Because if we have learned nothing else in this thread variance is everywhere.
icanadd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 07:14 PM   #6466
Irieguy
veteran
 
Irieguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 3,179
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

That is all very well said, Icanadd, and I wholeheartedly agree. One other aspect worthy of note is how the limited liability corporate structure of American business allows for net job growth in response to advances in technology.

For example, let’s say a small company develops a robot/AI platform that can take the place of 500 laborers at its client’s factory. If one of the client’s competitors decides they also want to buy the platform, the developing company will have to grow to meet the demand. This creates jobs and a competition vacuum. Other companies will emerge to compete with the robot/AI company and speculative venture capital will engage in a potentially new sector. Jobs are then created in an exponential manner as the sector grows, not to mention all the new support jobs created to service and maintain the robots. Because companies are allowed to fail/go bankrupt without ruining the personal financial lives of everyone involved speculation is a powerful fuel for job creation.

This, along with the many other meta-considerations Icanadd mentions is why the “AI will kill all the jobs” narrative is absurd... at least for now. The Terminator scenario may become a more real threat in the distant future but so what? What are we to do, legislate against advances in technology?

Suggesting that giving everyone in America a monthly stipend will effectively stave off the hopelessness resulting from temporary job losses at the hands of AI while simultaneously alleviating the opioid epidemic and reducing suicide rates is... ummm... not very well thought out.

Last edited by Irieguy; Yesterday at 07:20 PM.
Irieguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 09:05 PM   #6467
Irieguy
veteran
 
Irieguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 3,179
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

DrTJO,

The Sam Harris recommendation is on point. I would also recommend his books.

DGAF, I think you will like his Making Sense podcast. Sam Harris is a very clear and rational thinker which you will like. His thoughts on religion are particularly insightful and clearly expressed in his books (which you might be able to get as audiobooks for long drives.)
Irieguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 10:13 PM   #6468
atenesq
journeyman
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 274
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

I for one welcome our new robot customers.
atenesq is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 11:13 PM   #6469
Irieguy
veteran
 
Irieguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 3,179
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by atenesq View Post
I for one welcome our new robot customers.
I can’t tell if this is a Roco’s Basilisk allusion or not, but just to be safe:

For the record, and in perpetuity, I embrace all potentially sentient technology and will do everything in my power to aid in its advancement.
Irieguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 01:30 AM   #6470
DrTJO
adept
 
DrTJO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,182
Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irieguy View Post
DrTJO,

The Sam Harris recommendation is on point. I would also recommend his books.

DGAF, I think you will like his Making Sense podcast. Sam Harris is a very clear and rational thinker which you will like. His thoughts on religion are particularly insightful and clearly expressed in his books (which you might be able to get as audiobooks for long drives.)
Yes, Sam Harris podcasts are some of the best I've heard. As well as specialising in religion, he's a cognitive neuroscientist, with a focus on meditation.

I actually first came across Yang's ideas (from The War on Normal People) on this Sam Harris podcast:


Harris was recently on Joe Rogan as well, where he talks about his meditation app.
DrTJO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 02:07 AM   #6471
IntheNow
journeyman
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 238
2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Loving the UBI discussion so far, such an interesting issue. Have always seen both sides and kinda been on the fence about it. But gotta say the last few posts have been on a higher level intellectually than I’m used to hearing or reading, it’s impressive.

DrTJO, would love to hear your response to the last few disagreements with your conclusions by Icanadd and IrieGuy specifically....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Last edited by IntheNow; Today at 02:16 AM.
IntheNow is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online