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Old 12-06-2018, 11:44 AM   #5901
borg23
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by Alpha Fish View Post
I don't know a single person who legit makes money short stacking PLO, they are all universally terrible. They might lose slower vs sitting deep but they are definitely not worse for the game than a competent player.
There are definitely some people who make money short stacking plo
They are not good at poker at all but they can grind out a small amount

The have the right to do so nobody disputes that

Last edited by borg23; 12-06-2018 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 12-06-2018, 11:48 AM   #5902
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by bodybuilder32 View Post
Question for DGAF and other pros:

What are tips for getting over beating yourself up over a blunder? Last night I basically punted off a stack trying to bluff a fish. The fish made a terrible call but I'm the bigger idiot for even going for it.

When sh*t like this happens, I keep thinking that I just lost 15 hours of work, not to mention EV in my winrate, and it takes me close to a week to stop thinking about it and obsessing over it.

On the one hand, it forces me to quit making blunders. On the other hand, my quality of life goes down cus I keep thinking about all the mistakes I've made and how much higher my win rate would be if I didn't make a tilt mistake here or a misclick there.

Can anyone relate?

Im super jealous of LAGS that seem to throw money in and just appear to not give a flying f*ck if they lose money on a marginal play. They just keep on LAGging it up like nothing happened. LOL

I feel like losing makes me want to play like a nit just so I can justify to myself that I didn't make a mistake or I didn't spew in a particular spot. I know this thinking is wrong. I want to get over the bridge of being a nit pro while not crossing over into the dark world of tilt where you stop caring about losing. It seems very difficult to achieve. For me atleast.
I misread my hand a few months back and lost 1500 when I would have lost 0 if I wasn't an idiot

I also mucked a winning hand in a side pot a few years back that was about 1000 dollars

It sucks and you feel like a moron when I happens
But I'm sure it's happened in my favor before and I just never knew it

Hopefully I don't do anything that dumb again but you can't beat yourself up over it
It doesn't make anything better
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Old 12-06-2018, 06:54 PM   #5903
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by bodybuilder32 View Post
Question for DGAF and other pros:

What are tips for getting over beating yourself up over a blunder? Last night I basically punted off a stack trying to bluff a fish. The fish made a terrible call but I'm the bigger idiot for even going for it.
Get fundamentally better at poker so you don't make as many blunders. For the first like 6 months of 2018 I'm pretty sure I got called every single river crai in holdem I made and I never had it. It was a bit deflating but I felt ok about the hands I chose and the opponents/ranges I was playing against.

As far as actual stupid mistakes...

A couple weeks ago I got 3000 in a 1000 pot on A75r with AQQJ in PLO because I was drunk and confused and I guess sometimes I'm not very good at recognizing pot size when I get way too drunk

15+ months ago I called off over 1.5x pot into over 3k on JTx97r in holdem with 87 because I was drunk and confused and I guess sometimes I'm not very good at recognizing pot size when I get way too drunk

I felt very stupid these and while these are definitely the worst two, they aren't the only two. The solution to avoiding these errors is I guess don't take 10+ shots when you're sitting in a big bet poker game with 10k+ dollars/many hundreds of blinds. Often easier said then done and sometimes not really an option for me.
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Old 12-06-2018, 08:27 PM   #5904
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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808 is hawaii?

I'm finding Hawaii folks to be pretty awesome.
lol not my area code. i'm based in Canada.
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Old 12-06-2018, 09:42 PM   #5905
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by Sean Snyder View Post
Get fundamentally better at poker so you don't make as many blunders. For the first like 6 months of 2018 I'm pretty sure I got called every single river crai in holdem I made and I never had it. It was a bit deflating but I felt ok about the hands I chose and the opponents/ranges I was playing against.

As far as actual stupid mistakes...

A couple weeks ago I got 3000 in a 1000 pot on A75r with AQQJ in PLO because I was drunk and confused and I guess sometimes I'm not very good at recognizing pot size when I get way too drunk

15+ months ago I called off over 1.5x pot into over 3k on JTx97r in holdem with 87 because I was drunk and confused and I guess sometimes I'm not very good at recognizing pot size when I get way too drunk

I felt very stupid these and while these are definitely the worst two, they aren't the only two. The solution to avoiding these errors is I guess don't take 10+ shots when you're sitting in a big bet poker game with 10k+ dollars/many hundreds of blinds. Often easier said then done and sometimes not really an option for me.
But if they call when they "should" have folded then don't you chalk that up to a mistake on your end (for targeting the wrong guy). Unless you have countless hands of experience where that specific play worked for you against your opponent's range and you KNOW FOR SURE that the play is profitiable, then it is hard not to feel like you just punted and slashed your winrate down?

Maybe it's too difficult to know in the long run the true probability of how successful a bluff will be in a particular spot. This is what f*cks with my head because I always say to myself "why the hell did I even risk it when I could have just waited for value hands and ran up my stack by value betting?"

This type of thinking is probably why the nitty players never make moves. It's still hard for me to shrug it off though.
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Old 12-06-2018, 10:01 PM   #5906
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Hey DGAF,

Just a note to say thanks for the podcasts. Much as I enjoy your writing style, because it is, and always has been, yours to own, actually hearing your poker sessions described is just as good, if not better. The length of the podcast, with all its real life gaps, sips on beer, digressions, etc., captures the psychological and emotional reality beyond the generic hand history: I guess it's no coincidence that "talking therapy" still has enduring value in the professional psych field. Sure, we all know how brutal poker can be, and we hear it said all the time, but the way you patiently and honestly detail each hand (I'm thinking of the sessions podcast from Nov. 30) certainly demonstrates the mind-numbing pain that we all inevitably endure, often in stretches that often seem unjust and unfair, so much so that we really do question the value of what we're doing. Much respect, too, for your willingness to accept your circumstances and humbly adjust to the tarnished beauty of full-ring, red-chip life. Love how you're doing the business thing, as well.
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Old 12-06-2018, 11:03 PM   #5907
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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But if they call when they "should" have folded then don't you chalk that up to a mistake on your end (for targeting the wrong guy).
No, this isn't how poker works. That's like saying you targeted the wrong guy by jamming KK aipf against a calling range of QQ+/AK and the opponent happening to have AA
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Old 12-07-2018, 08:41 AM   #5908
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

^ Yes but was he at the tippy top of his range when you CRAI on the river? Or did he have marginal holding like top pair that you thought you could get him off but didn't?

IMO, if he called you with a marginal holding, such as top pair, then attempting the bluff would be considered a "mistake" unless you have seen this play work enough times against this specific player type to justify the risk.


For example, in my lastest blunder, I tried to represent a flush when checked to on the turn, and then I double barrel jammed when checked to on the river. I put my opponent squarely on top pair and he called anyway. He was a passive, phillipino fish, and I have more than enough experience to know that trying to get this player type off top pair is lighting money on fire.

This is what I mean by "targeting" incorrectly. But maybe your hands were different?
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Old 12-07-2018, 12:23 PM   #5909
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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^ Yes but was he at the tippy top of his range when you CRAI on the river? Or did he have marginal holding like top pair that you thought you could get him off but didn't?

IMO, if he called you with a marginal holding, such as top pair, then attempting the bluff would be considered a "mistake" unless you have seen this play work enough times against this specific player type to justify the risk.


For example, in my lastest blunder, I tried to represent a flush when checked to on the turn, and then I double barrel jammed when checked to on the river. I put my opponent squarely on top pair and he called anyway. He was a passive, phillipino fish, and I have more than enough experience to know that trying to get this player type off top pair is lighting money on fire.

This is what I mean by "targeting" incorrectly. But maybe your hands were different?
Exactly
I sleep better going for it and getting called then knowing I should go for it but checking/folding /just calling the river (depending on the hand)

When some dude tanks forever and finally calls w a monster I know it was the right move I just ran into it

When I get called w marginal garbage then I got outplayed
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Old 12-07-2018, 03:44 PM   #5910
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodybuilder32 View Post
Question for DGAF and other pros:

What are tips for getting over beating yourself up over a blunder? Last night I basically punted off a stack trying to bluff a fish. The fish made a terrible call but I'm the bigger idiot for even going for it.

When sh*t like this happens, I keep thinking that I just lost 15 hours of work, not to mention EV in my winrate, and it takes me close to a week to stop thinking about it and obsessing over it.

On the one hand, it forces me to quit making blunders. On the other hand, my quality of life goes down cus I keep thinking about all the mistakes I've made and how much higher my win rate would be if I didn't make a tilt mistake here or a misclick there.

Can anyone relate?

Im super jealous of LAGS that seem to throw money in and just appear to not give a flying f*ck if they lose money on a marginal play. They just keep on LAGging it up like nothing happened. LOL

I feel like losing makes me want to play like a nit just so I can justify to myself that I didn't make a mistake or I didn't spew in a particular spot. I know this thinking is wrong. I want to get over the bridge of being a nit pro while not crossing over into the dark world of tilt where you stop caring about losing. It seems very difficult to achieve. For me atleast.

Just stabbing here but it sounds like youíre unrolled. Itís a lot easier to not worry about the money and continue pushing edges if your risk of ruin is low.

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Originally Posted by borg23 View Post
Exactly

I sleep better going for it and getting called then knowing I should go for it but checking/folding /just calling the river (depending on the hand)



When some dude tanks forever and finally calls w a monster I know it was the right move I just ran into it



When I get called w marginal garbage then I got outplayed

What if they are snap calling in their head but tanking bc they know youíll bluff again next time bc you were so close to getting one through 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)



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Old 12-07-2018, 05:23 PM   #5911
Sean Snyder
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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^ Yes but
Nevermind, we just look at things differently
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Old 12-07-2018, 05:48 PM   #5912
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Nevermind, we just look at things differently
Well, if you assign a villain a range and he calls your bluff with the very bottom of that range it would seem on the surface to be a bad bluff. If it wasn't a bad bluff then it means you think he (or the player pool with his profile) still folds his range in that spot enough times to make it +EV even though he did call with the very bottom of his range. Of course that also means his call could not be anticipated (given the information you had)...and certainly not at a calling frequency high enough to make the bluff -EV.
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Old 12-07-2018, 10:49 PM   #5913
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by miamicheats View Post
Just stabbing here but it sounds like you’re unrolled. It’s a lot easier to not worry about the money and continue pushing edges if your risk of ruin is low.




What if they are snap calling in their head but tanking bc they know you’ll bluff again next time bc you were so close to getting one through 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)



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I can see why you would think that. That's not the case tho. I don't get mad that I lost the money I get mad that I "pushed an edge that wasn't an edge at all"

I get so pissed because it's my only form of income. I hate losing when it's my fault because I can't brush it off as variance, because negative variance is expected and outside of your control.

My mistake cost me days of labor. If I make enough blunders then it becomes even weeks or MONTHS of labor out the f**** window.

It's not the money as much as the time and EV. I now have to factor blunders into my hourly and expected win rate, which obviously cuts my win rate down.

It's like if you had a boss and everytime you made a mistake at work he gave you a small pay cut in your salary. You would be f***** pissed off!

My original question was how to deal with this mind f*ck. But I can see how ignoring it and assuming you are god's gift to poker can actually be more beneficial when trying to crank in hours.

Last edited by bodybuilder32; 12-07-2018 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 12-07-2018, 10:55 PM   #5914
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Nevermind, we just look at things differently
I honestly don't know what this means. The fact that you don't care to explain your reasoning makes you come off like you are superior or something.
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Old Yesterday, 10:01 AM   #5915
borg23
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I can see why you would think that. That's not the case tho. I don't get mad that I lost the money I get mad that I "pushed an edge that wasn't an edge at all"

I get so pissed because it's my only form of income. I hate losing when it's my fault because I can't brush it off as variance, because negative variance is expected and outside of your control.

My mistake cost me days of labor. If I make enough blunders then it becomes even weeks or MONTHS of labor out the f**** window.

It's not the money as much as the time and EV. I now have to factor blunders into my hourly and expected win rate, which obviously cuts my win rate down.

It's like if you had a boss and everytime you made a mistake at work he gave you a small pay cut in your salary. You would be f***** pissed off!

My original question was how to deal with this mind f*ck. But I can see how ignoring it and assuming you are god's gift to poker can actually be more beneficial when trying to crank in hours.
Honestly it sounds like you're being way too results oriented
If they same guy folds you barely even remember the hand
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Old Yesterday, 05:05 PM   #5916
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

I know of 1 pro short stacker, buys in short no matter if its 2/5 or 25/50 and is a pretty big winner.
I folded a 9k pot in a 5/5plo game a few years ago AI on the river I had the nuts and the other player did not
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Old Yesterday, 07:04 PM   #5917
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I know of 1 pro short stacker, buys in short no matter if its 2/5 or 25/50 and is a pretty big winner.
I folded a 9k pot in a 5/5plo game a few years ago AI on the river I had the nuts and the other player did not
He probably makes more than most full stack nl grinders. Depending on where he lives he could rotate between 3-4 casinos on a good night. It's really hard to get 100bb in preflop that isn't top 5% hand in nl imo. But it's real easy to get 2-3 players to flick in 20-30bbs pre (and fold somewhere post flop) with a garbage hand.

That's also why a limp rr strat in 2/5 and even 5/10 games with a wide range can be so profitable.
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Old Today, 10:02 AM   #5918
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Honestly it sounds like you're being way too results oriented
If they same guy folds you barely even remember the hand
I donít think heís being results oriented at all. He thought a bluff was +ev based on the assumption that a guy would fold a certain portion of his range which turned out to not be true.

To answer bodybuilders question, thereís nothing wrong with getting upset about making mistakes but you just have to be logical and tell yourself that dwelling on it is going to cause you to make more mistakes, so itís just in your best interest to move on and try not to make the same mistake twice. GOtta be able to let the past go and just play your best in the present <ó prob more important than anything else in live poker. Thereís no secret to it, just gotta tell yourself ďI want to stay mad, but I know thatís going to be detrimental so Iím gonna move onĒ itís all will power and you can exercise it like a muscle IME. And donít get down if you fail just try to be better than yesterday.
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Old Today, 11:19 AM   #5919
borg23
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I donít think heís being results oriented at all. He thought a bluff was +ev based on the assumption that a guy would fold a certain portion of his range which turned out to not be true.

To answer bodybuilders question, thereís nothing wrong with getting upset about making mistakes but you just have to be logical and tell yourself that dwelli
ng on it is going to cause you to make more mistakes, so itís just in your best interest to move on and try not to make the same mistake twice. GOtta be able to let the past go and just play your best in the present <ó prob more important than anything else in live poker. Thereís no secret to it, just gotta tell yourself ďI want to stay mad, but I know thatís going to be detrimental so Iím gonna move onĒ itís all will power and you can exercise it like a muscle IME. And donít get down if you fail just try to be better than yesterday.
He 100 % is being results oriented
Some good bluffs get called
That doesn't make them bad
It also doesn't mean that player calls every time we that same hand
Like I said when it works he doesn't think twice about it
Sometimes when you bluff people just have pure garbage or you're bluffing with the best hand
But unless someone folds face up you never know what they had
Maybe it was a good bluff,maybe it was fortunate timing


Also @time bomb-thats gross.
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Old Today, 03:24 PM   #5920
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

I think his real question is about how to deal with negative variance. The strategies for dealing with the mental side of variance and not being results-oriented have been well-documented, but it's still unbelievably hard

-focus on playing well and making good decisions, not on results
-play within your means. consider the worse case. such as, consider a worst-case 20 buy-in downswing as not having a tangible effect on your standard of living. you're well rolled, can move down, find staking, etc...
-study a lot so that you know you are making good decisions (your lines and bluffs are verified by the crushers you are emulating, verified through solver analysis, and verified through your own experiences)
-Recognize that making good decisions and losing is just part of poker. It's kind of what we signed up for when we put money on the table.

I'm a 2/5 side income grinder and losing stretches are still brutal. I think you have to be unbelievably rich for 1-4k losses, which are perfectly within variance, to be meaningless to you. One of the things I'm trying to figure out is how to enjoy poker while losing and I'm not coming up with great answers (obviously the social aspect/friends).

This is kind of going off on a tangent, but I think the Moore podcast with DGAF is a bit telling. I'm thinking that the entertainment/social value that pros can provide pales in comparison to providing them a profitable game where they aren't drawing dead (because they're playing with other whales). This is also kind of where the action is heading (5 card plo), or games that introduce enough variance (or perceive to introduce enough variance) such that whales can win.
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