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Medium-High Stakes Full Ring Discussion of $400+ pot-limit and no-limit and 5/10 live texas hold'em full ring games, situations and strategies

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Old Yesterday, 05:01 PM   #5751
icanadd
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
He was talking about me obv (my name is in there). He assumed I had baller poker friends (I don't).



Anyways, I use alcohol but don't have a problem with it. I used to drink in excess at poker tables, but I don't even drink when I play anymore. I have one night a week where I cut loose and decompress (aka bowling night). I don't do drugs nor do I have a problem with gambling (used to do both those things though obv).



The main factor that led me to going broke: I always played on no roll and had a huge monthly nut/no money management. Finally, after a decade+ I ran like **** **** **** **** **** **** ****/experienced an anomalous bad luck streak that I doubt anyone reading this has even approached, and I barely had one losing year (I lost a pot as a 98/2 that year that was ~ as big as the total amount I lost for the year) <-- was enough to pummel me.



Confidence shot? Nah, I never quit anyone/I'm happy to play anyone (assuming I have the buy-in lol).



Did I play too high? If I didn't I never could have made my monthly nut, so IDTS.



Would I make the same mistakes? The main concern would be variance. I'm all grown up these days.



"20k is a lot of money" <-- is all relative, no?



It's not a "money choice". It's a (hypothetical) friendship/human choice. Obv loaning money is always a horrific financial investment.



It's not for addiction. What addiction?



---



I have no idea why people reacted the way they did to Praff's post. It was organic. He was curious. We all think differently about money, friendship, etc. No one was asking for anything/I certainly wasn't (and I would never ask anyone that didn't know me well enough and vice versa).



Let's put this one to bed.


Cool.

I read it a a theoretical question and my response was not intended to be about you.

I was clearly over ideal amount of bourbon when posting on that one apparently


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Old Yesterday, 06:13 PM   #5752
sarganaga
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
Antes are great but tough logistically. "Straddle" is cool and funny and gamble-y and macho and fun and...

Nits can no longer own the table with their folding abilities.
That awesome 2-5-10 button straddle game that you pointed me toward some years back in Vegas had, for over a year, a dead 10 on the button in addition to the straddle. The game was never held up trying to figure out who didn't ante. It was never a nit fest for sure.
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Old Yesterday, 06:27 PM   #5753
sarganaga
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Played in an interesting game around the WSOP back in the 70's. Mike Cox (not a big fan ) suggested it & called it "squeeze busters".

The game was 25 on the button, 25 in sb, 50 in bb. All live (standard structure back then). Action started under the gun & proceeded in turn. If it was limped to you, you could call, raise, or fold ... but if you folded, you had to put $25 in the pot. If it was raised before you acted, you could fold without penalty.

Lots of action, for sure, but most games were pretty lively back then.
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Old Yesterday, 08:42 PM   #5754
Liveidiot
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
Here is what was in the spoiler:



THE ONLY WAY TO CONTROL YOUR OWN DESTINY AT THE POKER TABLE (AND IT'S FAR FROM TOTAL CONTROL OBV) IS TO PLAY BIG AND SH AGAINST WEAK SH PLAYERS IME. AND THAT **** IS NOT EASY TO FIND/YOU BEST GET USED TO THAT GRAVEYARD SHIFT/YOU BEST LEARN ALL THE SOFT SKILLS



I stand by it. If you think one can overcome running bad in full ring rake fests, I want some rationale. Playing tight =/= being on the right side of coolers/beats obv, and keep in mind that survivorship bias/variance in poker in general is a gigantic mind**** (it took me forever to even begin to grasp- and I obsessed over it).



I know I can win running bad in big sh games--if there are weak players. I have done it a ton/for a decade. I don't think I can overcome running bad in any other type of game. Not sure how others would either.



Plz advise.


No doubt in my mind about your record playing mid/highstakes shorthanded. On the other hand Im pretty sure you dont have an impressive record playing lowstakes fullring. You probably dont even have a record of that AT ALL (the last 15 years or so?)..

Anyway, my main point is that the skill-level in some lowstakes players is so low (I mean reeeeeeally low) that variance shouldnt ever be an issue for you. If you do it right that is.

Thats compared to variance in shorthanded games which I assume is monstrous in the shortterm (I have very little exp of that myself so shouldnt really say too much about it)..

Fixing your results at the lower stskes would probably require a change of, among other things, your tableimage, your mindset and your handselection (to a nit2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)). But thats a different discussion I guess.

Good luck now dude. Rooting for you.
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Old Yesterday, 10:58 PM   #5755
8o8
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

what's logistically complicated about an ante paid by one player? also do antes paid by everyone really slow the game down much in practice?
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Old Today, 12:19 AM   #5756
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
I never said I was pissed about anything. I think I'm far from entitled (at least relatively speaking in the poker world). Praff brought it up because it didn't make sense to him/he likes my pods and this thread. I think it's a fine hypothetical question/discussion. We have never met and I certainly didn't ask him to post that.

I'm fine err I'm gonna be fine. I also have no anger for anyone in the poker world, just understanding...
Well first off I was responding to Pr4ff, not you DGAF. Secondly, I did not realize his hypothetical was talking about you. But the reason why I don't really like it is because it assumes you want help. Like you said, you don't ask for help, nor are you upset with anyone if they don't help you financially. You're not entitled. So there is literally no issue on either end - yours or your friends. If it doesn't upset you or affect your friendships then it definitely should not affect some dude on the internet who likes your pods!
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Old Today, 01:26 AM   #5757
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
Did I play too high? If I didn't I never could have made my monthly nut, so IDTS.
Question regarding the above quote: Would your monthly nut have gotten that high in the first place had you not played that high? I mean, if I don't recall all the exact details of said monthly nut, but there was a nice 'high tier' school for your kids, stuff like that. Maybe you choose another school if you don't make that much money.

Basically the sub-question, which of the following statements is closer to your situation?
1) You started playing mid/high stakes poker (non nosebleed) because you had too (because of an already existing monthly nut).

2) You started playing these mid/high stakes because you liked it and had the skills. Based on the money you were making at this moment, you decided (totally justifiable btw) to treat your kids to a nice school and some other choices that led to a high monthly nut.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been under the impression that it was more situation #2.
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Old Today, 01:30 AM   #5758
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by 8o8 View Post
i think if there's enough money in your local poker ecosystem, PLO may be the best bet going forward. it truly is the gambler's game. if you structure it in such a way that variance doesn't finish off the guys that aren't insane-o rich, and you roll yourself properly, it can be long-term viable i think.

PLO games can't help but be fun, and play more like pit games, because of how the equities run. they're inherently more fun. and no one can (yet) truly claim to have figured PLO out, and likely will not for a while. there is no system. you have to play poker.
u know how u keep the variance from not finishing off the guys who arent insanely rich? u decrease the minimum buyin. it annoys me how so many good PLO games make the min buy $200 instead of $100. ive considered moving to montana or oregon to try to find a smaller game. and another way to decrease the variance is to get rid of straddles. theres nothing more annoying than a dick sitting down at your table who not only wants to straddle but to push everyone else into doing it too. its bad for poker
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Old Today, 01:32 AM   #5759
apology7
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Yeah, there are plenty of edges in live full ring. Its def not just a cooler-fest. I find myself disagreeing with much of the sentiment in this thread. Its most likely DGAF is playing far too loose. Sloppy lag deepstack can work deep shorthanded but it's a disaster fullring. Just because you have to be fundamentally sound preflop does not mean the edges are gone. DGAF do you study, play online, run pio sims, etc? Most likley not. What worked in 2012 does not work today. I'm not saying you cant still slaughter the games, but you are most likley not play FR correctly because you are probably deviating too much from optimal play. Post flop do whatever you want.

Last edited by apology7; Today at 01:37 AM.
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Old Today, 01:47 AM   #5760
sevencard2003
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by TheTyman9 View Post
This seems like a fair viewpoint. Shorthanded vs bad players will provide the greatest edge and there will be more spots where they are leaking you money. So coolers will have less of an impact on the short term results. Playing big doesn't have much to do with that but I assume you are saying playing big in the context that people become more uncomfortable with the stakes and then make even more mistakes which is also valid. Also easier to have games stay shorthanded at higher stakes since less people can afford to sit.
the problem with shorthanded games is the "bad" players suddenly become very difficult to beat. why? because bad players main mistake is calling too much. and in shorthanded games it benefits them and i get hurt for folding too much. still however, id rather play with 6 or 7 than with 10, simply so im not bored and so the game has better action.
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Old Today, 02:35 AM   #5761
apology7
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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the problem with shorthanded games is the "bad" players suddenly become very difficult to beat. why? because bad players main mistake is calling too much. and in shorthanded games it benefits them and i get hurt for folding too much. still however, id rather play with 6 or 7 than with 10, simply so im not bored and so the game has better action.
100% wrong
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Old Today, 05:34 AM   #5762
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Hope the backlash you received doesn't dissuade you or others from asking sincere, perhaps provocative questions. This thread has to stay real, fresh and organic--or I'm out.
No siree Bob!

I've a whole bunch-o-them

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Old Today, 08:14 AM   #5763
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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There is just no end game for live short-stacking. You can't just snap pick up after a double and buy in short at another table of the same stakes <-- makes professional short-stacking impossible --> there are no short-stacking pros!

Spoiler:
we have a few at borgata who will short stack either 2/5 plo or 5/10 plo and if they double leave and go play 1/2 or 2/5 nl for an hour then come back with a min buy again

when they're on my direct left and I know they're just playing their free hands before leaving, i sit out on my big blind then buy the button the next hand costing them a free hand out of pure spit (and obviously getting one less hand that orbit myself)
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Old Today, 08:28 AM   #5764
borg23
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

dgaf-
what do you think you can beat vegas 2/5 nl for per hour?

and why do you drive to vegas to play it? don't you leave closer to commerce ? ( i could be totally wrong on that)
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Old Today, 08:33 AM   #5765
borg23
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by sevencard2003 View Post
u know how u keep the variance from not finishing off the guys who arent insanely rich? u decrease the minimum buyin. it annoys me how so many good PLO games make the min buy $200 instead of $100. ive considered moving to montana or oregon to try to find a smaller game. and another way to decrease the variance is to get rid of straddles. theres nothing more annoying than a dick sitting down at your table who not only wants to straddle but to push everyone else into doing it too. its bad for poker
nobody wants some god damn nit buying in for 100 in a 2/5 plo game or really any plo game tony.

Variance isn't what does donkeys in. Variance is the only thing that lets them last a while in the game,run well for a while, think they're good etc and variance in the reason poker exists.donkeys who play plo aren't playing plo to reduce their variance- they're playing bc plo is super fun BECAUSE of the variance.
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Old Today, 08:34 AM   #5766
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by apology7 View Post
Yeah, there are plenty of edges in live full ring. Its def not just a cooler-fest. I find myself disagreeing with much of the sentiment in this thread. Its most likely DGAF is playing far too loose. Sloppy lag deepstack can work deep shorthanded but it's a disaster fullring. Just because you have to be fundamentally sound preflop does not mean the edges are gone. DGAF do you study, play online, run pio sims, etc? Most likley not. What worked in 2012 does not work today. I'm not saying you cant still slaughter the games, but you are most likley not play FR correctly because you are probably deviating too much from optimal play. Post flop do whatever you want.
**** solvers and **** gto bots.
the games solvers are good for live aren't worth playing in.
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Old Today, 08:43 AM   #5767
borg23
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by sevencard2003 View Post
the problem with shorthanded games is the "bad" players suddenly become very difficult to beat. why? because bad players main mistake is calling too much. and in shorthanded games it benefits them and i get hurt for folding too much. still however, id rather play with 6 or 7 than with 10, simply so im not bored and so the game has better action.
yea and as usual you're wrong and have no idea what you're talking about which is why you're playing 1/2 nl.
the shorter a game the more actual skill is involved.
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Old Today, 08:54 AM   #5768
JoeC2012
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Seems to me solvers should be useful in any live game.

Learning what's optimal, then learning when to deviate from it, seems like a much more bulletproof way to learn poker than trying to guess at a specific fish's range every time. In fact the latter seems really tiresome!
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Old Today, 09:11 AM   #5769
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by apology7 View Post
Yeah, there are plenty of edges in live full ring. Its def not just a cooler-fest. I find myself disagreeing with much of the sentiment in this thread. Its most likely DGAF is playing far too loose. Sloppy lag deepstack can work deep shorthanded but it's a disaster fullring. Just because you have to be fundamentally sound preflop does not mean the edges are gone. DGAF do you study, play online, run pio sims, etc? Most likley not. What worked in 2012 does not work today. I'm not saying you cant still slaughter the games, but you are most likley not play FR correctly because you are probably deviating too much from optimal play. Post flop do whatever you want.
I stopped keeping track of this aspect eventually but for about 4000 hours worth of 5/10 NL I had a column in excel for ‘full ring’ or ‘six or less’ (mainly because I’m a nit who wanted to track how much I saved from when I paid half time lol).

My full ring % of sessions won over 2600ish hours was about 53% for about $68ish an hour

My six-handed or less % of sessions won over 1400ish hours was about 64% for about $96ish an hour

I’m not even that good short handed but the results speak for themselves imo, full ring is certainly beatable and DGAF probably does overdramatize a little bit in that regard but you really are much more at the mercy of your good hands holding up against slightly less good hands, whereas short handed in soft lineups you can practically not look sometimes
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Old Today, 10:13 AM   #5770
apology7
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by JoeC2012 View Post
Seems to me solvers should be useful in any live game.

Learning what's optimal, then learning when to deviate from it, seems like a much more bulletproof way to learn poker than trying to guess at a specific fish's range every time. In fact the latter seems really tiresome!
This is certainly true. Understanding GTO doesnt mean you have to play it in every circumstance. It gives you a theoretical framework and deep understanding of range vs range + board texture. Thankfully most live pros are 4+ years behind the curve, super lazy, and dont crank out enough hands online to deeply understand the strategy. Also thankfully there is resistance to it by so many players who have no idea what it actually is due to misconceptions
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Old Today, 12:00 PM   #5771
bodybuilder32
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Yo DGAF quick question,

Why do you drive all the way to Vegas to play 2/5? Between the hours lost driving, the gas expense, and the extra mileage you are putting on your car, I would think this is -EV for you?

Can't you stay in LA for good $5 blind games?
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Old Today, 04:35 PM   #5772
borg23
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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This is certainly true. Understanding GTO doesnt mean you have to play it in every circumstance. It gives you a theoretical framework and deep understanding of range vs range + board texture. Thankfully most live pros are 4+ years behind the curve, super lazy, and dont crank out enough hands online to deeply understand the strategy. Also thankfully there is resistance to it by so many players who have no idea what it actually is due to misconceptions
yup and fortunately live poker isn't online poker and i can be 4 years behind the curve and make way more money than people ahead of me on that curve with zero personality, who aren't fun to play with for donks, who can't handle losing streaks that can take a really long time in live poker etc.And guess what- 5 years from now if I'm still playing poker I'll make more money than people who are fundamentally better than me who don't "get" live poker at all. Not more than all of course- some are just pure crushers playing bigger games and good for them.

would a lot of these players have higher win rates than me online if we played the same online games? yes of course. would they maybe be winners in some online games i would be a loser in? yes of course. and you know what- who cares.
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Old Today, 04:37 PM   #5773
borg23
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by bodybuilder32 View Post
Yo DGAF quick question,

Why do you drive all the way to Vegas to play 2/5? Between the hours lost driving, the gas expense, and the extra mileage you are putting on your car, I would think this is -EV for you?

Can't you stay in LA for good $5 blind games?
yea this didnt make much sense to me either.
i'd understand the reverse if he had a free place to crash and play poker in LA.
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