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Old 11-06-2018, 02:40 PM   #5676
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by cuserounder View Post
So the point I was making is basically that a lot of people who make it to the nosebleeds are degenerate gamblers who found a game they could beat - this leads to bad habits. Like, if Ivey wasn't (presumably) lighting money on fire in the pits, he'd probably look a lot different. If he wasn't playing for stakes that are even higher than he can afford (presumably), he'd probably have less stress and be happier. Of course, if he wasn't playing above his roll and being somewhat of a degen, he wouldn't have climbed the stakes as quickly and become Phil Ivey. So it's like a catch-22. I feel like that applies to a lot of nosebleed pros.

The thing is, if they never found poker, they would likely be living stressful lives anyway... So we shouldn't really base the discussion on guys like that, we should base it on the people who could be happy and live a reasonably content life without poker - then evaluate their likelihood of doing so in poker.

When I referred to the people who look like that (stressed out, miserable, etc) at 2/5, I didn't mean that everyone grinding 2/5 looks that way. I meant
the people playing it overrolled/underskilled. In other words, I was referring to my first point which was don't try to play for a living if you aren't a crusher.

So basically, I think there are people who can play a mixture 2/5, 5/T, T/25 for a living, manage their money well, never take too big of a risk, and avoid a lot of the stress because the downswings won't matter as much. I think these are few and far between, as I've pointed out - they have to be among the most talented players, the best money managers, the best ____, etc, etc.

The post you replied to was basically my advice to someone who wants to take a shot, and it essentially started with - find out if you're a crusher, only do it if you are... I think that's a good starting point for most people who are curious about playing poker for a living or have the burning desire to do so.



Maybe, but I don't think I'm in that mold. Like, sure, it would be cool to play with Doyle sometime, but I don't have dreams of regularly playing in the big game at Bobby's Room or anything like that. I'm not going to roll it up and take a shot at that. Maybe in 5, 10, 20 years if I have a massive bankroll and think I have a skill edge on the biggest games, I'll play them, but regardless of whether I do that or not, I can be happy with a career in poker that does not include that. I have no desire to live in Vegas, no desire to move halfway around the world to play in the biggest games. My plans are a little different than that.

That said, I do love the game, and I think I'm an outlier in terms of what I can achieve as far as winrates go.



Thanks!



Good question. He's probably a borderline losing player at poker. I suspect he beats 1/3 and some/most 2/5, but loses at most 5/T. He has some pretty big leaks, but he's definitely trying to win and not giving much action.

I don't know if he's King Whale, necessarily, so much as he just has the highest tier card. You can get there with a theo ranging from like $1,500 to $10,000 on the lower ends, so it's quite possible he's just dumped a little a few years in a row to get the card. He's also got friends in high places on the table games side, which factors in to how he gets treated.



Thanks... Yeah this is sort of what my thinking has been, which to be completely honest, is almost entirely based off what I've read in this thread over time regarding this kind of stuff.



Thanks!



Hmm, not sure what more to really add. Like basically he shoots a ton of angles against all players - recs, grinders, pros. He's always coming forward with tons of chips, usually just to drop in a call or a small bet. He's always watching for reads while doing it. He is frequently pump faking or cutting and stacking, cutting and stacking, cutting and stacking, cutting and stacking while he's "thinking" to try and get a read... So he slows the game down a lot. He either wants to be balanced with this or just thinks it's worth doing even when he has complete air because he does this stuff... all... the.... time...

He always hides his big chips, even if he's been warned they'll be back on the bottom of his stack right after the next dealer push. Sometimes he'll shuffle $40 in red chips and then put some $100s or $500s into that stack to play with - thus effectively hiding them from most players.

You know that guy in a tournament who never posts his ante and has to be reminded every single hand? This guy does that with his BB. He never posts his BB until he gets dealt his second card, unless the dealer literally stops the deal. He routinely ignores the action as a hand is starting - often by looking away from the table to talk to other people or look at his phone, and when being reminded action is on him, he often ignores it until the second or third reminder or he takes his time to even begin to look at his hand - it's an agonizing 5-10 second routine. <5% of dealers will muck his hand in this spot if he won't turn around, which drives me nuts.

His English isn't great, but I believe it's beyond serviceable... Until the floor gets called on him, then he always yells at whoever called floor on him, "Why you trouble me??? I no trouble anybody! I play! I just play! I lose, I win, I happy, I play! You angry why? Why you trouble me???"

He then, no matter what, spends the next few hands to an orbit yelling at the player who called floor and the floor, and almost every floor's response is to calm him down nicely, tell him to stop doing whatever the floor was called over, "You know better buddy, come on," and then they let him be. The second time he gets a warning, and then he stops doing it for the remainder of the shift. If the shift changes, he'll start up again.

He also slow rolls, including rec players and total newcomers. We've lost a semi-regular whale over it and were in danger of losing a new action player over it, which is the incident that really got me to go in hard on this guy to try to befriend the victimized whale-in-the-making and make sure he knew we were in the same boat as him (hating this guy).

He also does most of what he's doing with plausible deniability and always denies it. To slow roll, for example, he called, the rec player turned over the non-winning hand, and he looked at it and then he counted out the remainder of the call, several hundred bucks, confirmed the amount, looked back at the opponents hand a second time, then tabled his winner.

So when the shouting started and the floor got called, he went into his "Why you trouble me??? I just play! I call, I put money in, I turn over hand!"

So far my responses in these spots are to go right back at him and say something like, "I give you trouble because you give EVERYBODY else trouble, (name). I know what you're doing, you know what you're doing, and I know it's on purpose, you do it every day. You play all the time, and it's always the same ****."

The other day he tried to slow roll me at showdown - he bet, I called, and he wouldn't turn his cards over and motioned for me to turn them over. My policy here is unless the villain is a slow roller or someone who always makes the bettor show, if they indicate that they were bluffing or whatever, I table my hand and take the pot instead of forcing them to show - I think it's good business. But in this case I just sat there and kept saying, "I called you." He showed the near-nuts, and I started in on him, "You will NEVER slow roll me (name), I know what you do, and I will never show before you if you have to show first, so don't even waste everyone's time."

He then just started yelling at me for accusing him of slow rolling, floor got called, and we did the "Why you trouble me?" routine.



Agreed, mainly because the floors tend to let this stuff go because it's less trouble to them to just keep giving warnings than to actually take action.
If you want to prove your theory that poker is the best career choice for some, you should cite some examples/drop some data. I don't believe your theory is provable, so I only say that in case you are sincerely in search of the truth-- your coming up empty in support of your claim will inevitably lead you to the same realization the rest of us have come to imo...

If you are just justifying/rationalizing your dream, no need. Everyone is entitled to a dream. I respect that you are at least so passionate about something.

And if you want a variance check (beyond this billion page thread), check out my poker pod. I'm stuck playing 2-5 atm. I'm playing sober. I'm like Rain Man when I play poker sober. And I'm playing against hilariously bad competition.

Doesn't matter. I cannot turn over a winning hands...

Spoiler:
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Old 11-06-2018, 02:55 PM   #5677
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by cuserounder View Post
Given that I'm a huge bankroll nit, this seems very unlikely.



We've been over this before, if not ITT then in mine. I have a college degree, I'm not going to end up stuck with minimum wage work at the age of 40. My GPA wasn't off the charts in college, but my full academic resume was pretty good and I was encouraged to apply to a good MBA program by someone in the admissions department there. If I failed in poker, I would have at least a few options that are >>>> minimum wage work. But thanks for your concern trolling.

I know you hate either me or the idea of me succeeding or something. At the end of the day that's your problem, not mine.



Upswinging, we've been over this ITT too. Once again, if you want to tell me about how I'm going to go broke and end up flipping burgers or how I'm just a luckbox on a 5,000+ hour heater, go ahead over to my thread and feel free.



Not those who manage their bankrolls cautiously/properly.
Again, I think you are wasting energy defending your dream. Dreams need not be defended- especially to strangers.

The only thing productive at this point--if you actually want to prove a point--is to start dropping data in concise posts imo. Start by naming some poker lifers who are happy/made it without a huge bink (or outside money)/who would recommend it to a loved one...

And I hate to break it to you, but 5k hours at conditions that no longer exist is not significant. And to really beat a dead horse (because I have to), winning is only part of the picture (a much smaller part than most think imo).
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Old 11-06-2018, 02:58 PM   #5678
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by borg23 View Post
You need to make this guy as uncomfortable as possible and as often as possible within the rules.
You should also keep telling the floor about him hiding big chips which is cheating and hopefully he gets banned.
Call the clock on him all the time.
Warn players who don't know him what he's up to.
Oh ****, I missed the part about handling the nit lol.

Yeah, all this. Make his life miserable without ruining the vibe. Ask for support from other pros. Document the issues in a letter to the casino. Etc.
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Old 11-06-2018, 03:02 PM   #5679
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Originally Posted by borg23 View Post
People who go broke in poker either suck at poker and are delusional with regards to their ability or suck with money--or their expenses shoot up (sometimes beyond their control), or variance hits them hard (at the table or away from it), or the games they play in dry up, or something else super standard.
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Old 11-06-2018, 03:10 PM   #5680
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Cuse you seem like a good guy with a good heart but it's okay sometimes to not have the last word on everything. All you get from telling people they're wrong over and over is a brief rush of gratification that isn't worth having the silent majority who look for reasons to root for you to slowly start to resent you instead. This isn't a criticism, just some sincere advice from a guy probably thousands of miles away from you who himself used to love correcting people and is now feeling genuine anguish on your behalf that such a promising dude keeps giving into this backwards compulsion. Letting go of this need is so damn hard but it's worth it because it never does you any good. Please prove me right for believing in you and don't respond to this.

Upswinging I actually think you're (mostly) trying to help but you seem like too smart a guy to be spending so much time on these forums being so bitter. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that it's coming from a good place and you're trying to prevent what you perceive as their wrongness from getting them hurt but advice dispersed in such a manner is going to make people instinctively dig in their feet, and even if it does hit home it's not really a pleasant experience for anyone. I certainly made my share of mistakes early on in my poker career but they were MY mistakes - it's what made learning from them so cathartic.

In general I feel like this thread has gotten a little off track lately, what made this little sub-community such a sanctuary from the rest of the site was that it was a place where poker players could let go of that final layer of armor that preserves them from being truly embarrassed. Even those who aren't afraid of openly talking about the times they went busto or how poorly they're doing this year will desperately hold onto that last bit of ego and it was so refreshing to have DGAF just lay it all out there and inspire others to do the same. My hope is that things get back into the groove of people sharing and discussing those personal, seemingly mundane and insignificant anecdotes and weird feelings in poker that most people just never really express. Let's try harder, guys.
The first two paragraphs are extremely eloquent and insightful--but they also come off a bit judgmental. IDK.

The bold is important. But you need to hold yourself accountable as well. You dropped an extremely memorable post itt, many congratulated you and asked for more, and you straight up ghosted us lol.

Answer the questions people had after your first post/tell us more imo.
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Old 11-06-2018, 03:13 PM   #5681
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Random side note on Ivey. Everyone talks about his rise and skill and gambol and instincts. I actually wonder how much of this is even real and how much is his being a very good player who pocketed an absolutely astronomical amount of money via his FTP connection. I mean FFS Lindgren was a minority holder and was outed at some point to be taking home 250k/month. Is it absurd to think there is a decent chance Ivey has more than half his net worth from the FTP payouts?
Great player who ran amazing and nitted the **** out of the community (all take, no give/FTP BS).
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Old 11-06-2018, 03:17 PM   #5682
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I only want to comment on his skills/overhyped skills or not if you want, cause i dont have enough knowledge about the FTP trainwreck and how much the members there abused that site in terms of gaining money for themself.

Sure, its a small samplesize- but many of the hands ive seen with Ivey on tv poker like high stakes poker, tells the story of a man with amazing instincts and hand reading ability at least. For example when he rebluffs Lex Veldhuis with the 5-2 off allin pre on high stakes poker, and when he was seriously in the tank with the A6 aka bottom pair i believe it was against Dwan who was firing a huge triple barrell bluff. His instincts and ability to read the table dynamics is very impressive if you ask me.

On top of that it was a long period of time consisting of many years you could basically ask any top well known pro about who they think is the best in the world: and everyone said Phil Ivey without any doubt.

Sure, he probably have ran hot in numerous ways in the pokerworld to get in that position- i wont deny that either to make it clear.
"Best" in poker is impossible. Positive variance is a tornado. Negative variance is a sinkhole. Variance in general is both massive and massively under appreciated.

^^^ says nothing about his natural talent, which he seems to have as much of as anyone.
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Old 11-06-2018, 03:18 PM   #5683
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I am sure that much of this is true but I also think it is soooo much easier to be locked in and fearless when you can just expect another million (or whatever ridiculous amount) to roll in on the first of the month. Having no bankroll fear and playing huge with people that do is an astronomical edge.

His tank against Dwan was nothing terribly special iirc. Dwan is a well known lagspazz, Ivey had a pair. He also didn't call. You can't give too much credit to someone for almost making an amazing play.
PREACH
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Old 11-06-2018, 03:20 PM   #5684
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Very good point, and something that is easy to forget. Ive felt this for myself several times (as i am sure many other people too), the difference in playing poker with little to no bankroll, and playing when you are comfortably rolled/overrolled is two different worlds.
That's why I'm obsessed with "turning points" in poker careers. One big pot can/does change everything.
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Old 11-06-2018, 03:21 PM   #5685
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Well, so far cuse BRM game has been very solid (one of DGAF's weakness at the time) and I don't see why it would change.
Barring total burnout/a mental breakdown at some point, he will assuredly manage his money 11 million x better than I have to date.
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Old 11-06-2018, 03:23 PM   #5686
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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These things are personal so to a certain extent you have to learn by trial and error.

I have a lot of structure in my life. I go to bed mostly at the same time get up at the same time. I have lots of support in my life as well.

For someone who does not have lots of structure I would start with a sleep schedule, followed by some type of “bro therapy”, followed by some exercise. In an effort to find some of these.

You need someone you can talk about life with. Sleep for me at least is key.

The idea is that the “guard rails” help you see that you might be cycling down and let you act when it is easier to act logically before it becomes harder at the bottom of your cycle.

If your week is better if you do something and you can logically think why this makes you healthy/happy than it is a good candidate to be a habit that makes managing your cycle better and thus your life better.

People with bigger cycles need these more than people who have smaller cycles. People with jobs like poker that have little to no structure or people to be accountable to need to build some of this on their own on my opinion.

Hope this helped wish it was more straightforward to Id these things.


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Old 11-06-2018, 03:27 PM   #5687
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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Although in a lot of cases, you’re probably right, this a blanket statement that ignores a multitude of scenarios where a poker pro could go broke and it not be due to anything you stated above.

Unless you come from money, any player could go broke over and over again while trying to build a roll, due to being under rolled. Some may build an average roll but run bad while shot taking and never get over the hump, unexpected expenses happen, games getting tougher, etc. Plain and simple, you have to had run hot to become well rolled, and if you’re truly so over rolled that you can’t go broke while playing well AND you’re good with money, you can prob retire.
Solid post as usual... So many pros come from money/have no expenses--> it's easy to build a roll --> they can play weightless in the biggest/best games --> the rich get richer.
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Old 11-06-2018, 03:40 PM   #5688
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I can't figure the font thing out .

3 more episodes (of that show) will be released today. I hope you have subscribed, because I sometimes forget to Twitter blast them right away.

Thanks, man.
It looks to me like that link Surfdoc provided should give the info to fix your problem.

I am subscribed.
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Old 11-06-2018, 03:43 PM   #5689
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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found the time to listen to icanadd's 2 shows and also DG your poker content ones. fantastic job on the icanadd shows all three of you, lots of great things said. DG you're over 38? i thought younger.

2 questions on your poker content pods (yes someone found them interesting lol):

1. regarding re-lighting the flame on NLHE and the concept of adding a 3rd blind. what are your thoughts on other structures like antes and Mississippi straddle, versus putting in the mando UTG straddle as you recommend? do you like the latter because it's easier to implement in any NLHE game or because it's structurally better?

2. how do you weigh the added action and larger open sizes that the straddle causes with the reduction in effective stack depths? you also mention that you don't mind short stackers, and that a lot of regs play too deep. do you not think you give up a lot of edge playing around 100bb or below, compared to 250bb+? i find all the most interesting (and most edge available) poker decisions to be later streets.
Thanks, man. Yeah I'm old AF (aka 44).

1. UTG straddle is the best adjustment to the misery that 2-blind nl has become imo. Players like having the break of not putting any money in some hands (getting a free look at cards 2/3 of the time seems right). Mississippi often kills the action (**** opening a wide range oop vs a straddle) but is better than nothing usually. Antes (if paid by one) are good, but really hard to sell unless you are playing big ime.

So yeah, it's mainly for logistics that I only/always push for straddle as the adjustment--and hopefully for UTG straddle.

2. I don't mind short stackers at all. They are a big variable. Variables test your strategic abilities. Anything to make the cookie cutter training site strat obsolete imo. But mainly, with the exception of the last couple months in Red Chip Hell, I have always played the biggest game in the card room and those depend on short-stackers basically serving as unpaid props. Getting/keeping the "big" game going is (at least) half the battle.

No comment really on the strat of playing 3 blinds.
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Old 11-06-2018, 03:44 PM   #5690
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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tyty
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Old 11-06-2018, 03:47 PM   #5691
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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It looks to me like that link Surfdoc provided should give the info to fix your problem.

I am subscribed.
Yup, I'm going to try next time I log in.

And thanks. I'm learning that subscriptions, ratings and reviews are important as hell.

That's it for me for this week. Nap time for this old man.

PEACE
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Old 11-06-2018, 04:04 PM   #5692
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Ahhh, I see that my passive aggressiveness is working .

Just saw some new, amazing reviews for both pods. And subscriptions to both are starting to climb as well. Maybe someday I'll even earn an advertising buck!

Much love to all you reciprocators/supporters.

C YA NEXT WEEK
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Old 11-07-2018, 06:17 AM   #5693
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

I used to hate short stackers, and I still do in plo because imo they negatively impact most games. In nl however, I've really seen their value in recent years. 10/25nl min was lowered from 2.5 to 1.5k. Back when I was a reg in the 10/25nl there was a legendary whale who almost always min bought. The first time I played with said legend he lost 12 buy ins. More recently in my last 2/5 nl session a supposed reg punted 8 min buys. He was easily the worst player in the game. I've also had the converse happen. Played in a 2/5 game where a guy bought in for 300, Vpip 2 hands (which he won) and left with 210. I prefer shorter handed so it didn't bother me.
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Old 11-07-2018, 09:43 AM   #5694
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

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I used to hate short stackers, and I still do in plo because imo they negatively impact most games. In nl however, I've really seen their value in recent years. 10/25nl min was lowered from 2.5 to 1.5k. Back when I was a reg in the 10/25nl there was a legendary whale who almost always min bought. The first time I played with said legend he lost 12 buy ins. More recently in my last 2/5 nl session a supposed reg punted 8 min buys. He was easily the worst player in the game. I've also had the converse happen. Played in a 2/5 game where a guy bought in for 300, Vpip 2 hands (which he won) and left with 210. I prefer shorter handed so it didn't bother me.
i mean obviously you hate the short stackers who ruin the game with their short stacking bs while also being +ev without any actual skill.it's annoying enough in plo to have one or two but when you get a game with 3-5 it becomes a terrible game.

then there are definitely donks that will min buy 10-15 times a night.

there are also some players i wish could legally go south.

they might lose 1000 dollars 10 different times in a 5/10 or 10/20 game, but if they run it up to a 5k stack they don't play any hands.Even some of these donks just choose 1000 as their buy in. they don't care if it's 2/5,5/10 etc
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Old 11-07-2018, 11:17 PM   #5695
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

I think the best thing about the straddle is psychological. When everyone is voluntarily putting in what they know is a bad investment, the vibe becomes "gambling with the boys and kym" and people are ready to get creative in typically sub-optimal ways
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Old 11-08-2018, 01:43 AM   #5696
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

straddling is just a fun and lively mechanic in the game to make it more social. I'd disagree with dgaf that it fixes Hold'em or fundamentally changes optimal strategies. Tight is still right at 50bb effective.

Imo straddling, by its very nature, should be an optional activity. I'll straddle pretty often. however, I'll usually decline mandatory straddles at the table and mention there are plenty of 5/T tables and higher running and that I just want to play 2/5. When you do something that is required and is supposed to make things fun, It violates the idea of funness. It's no longer a fun activity. it's a mandatory activity.
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Old 11-08-2018, 03:06 AM   #5697
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pewpewrobot View Post
straddling is just a fun and lively mechanic in the game to make it more social. I'd disagree with dgaf that it fixes Hold'em or fundamentally changes optimal strategies. Tight is still right at 50bb effective.

Imo straddling, by its very nature, should be an optional activity. I'll straddle pretty often. however, I'll usually decline mandatory straddles at the table and mention there are plenty of 5/T tables and higher running and that I just want to play 2/5. When you do something that is required and is supposed to make things fun, It violates the idea of funness. It's no longer a fun activity. it's a mandatory activity.
You should have left this post at you don't like straddling, that way I could have stayed on my Tuesdays-only posting schedule...

If you actually think adding a straddle merely makes the game more social though, you are grossly incorrect. It makes opening more hands way more logical (stealing the blinds is worth 2.25x what it used to be/the blinds suddenly cost you 2.25x per round, there are less people to act behind each opening position up to the button) and rake as a % of blinds/pots shrinks to a way more reasonable level. That's just the meat and potatoes of it...

I could get into the asparagus of it (all the training site robots start short-circuiting immediately for one--because there is no blue print), but that's unnecessary/I've done it enough over the years itt/it should be pretty basic common sense at this point imo.

You don't have to straddle. And since I started playing 2-5 a couple months ago I stopped even trying for it. Too much resistance. Too many people just want to fold all night. That's fine. My fault for being stuck in 2-5. Honestly.

But in my thread??? Nope. I can't handle that kind of rationalization that could potentially be construed as logic.

2-blind fr nl is dead. R.I.P.

OK, carry on/c u guys Tuesday.
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Old 11-08-2018, 01:16 PM   #5698
pewpewrobot
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DGAF View Post
You should have left this post at you don't like straddling, that way I could have stayed on my Tuesdays-only posting schedule...

If you actually think adding a straddle merely makes the game more social though, you are grossly incorrect. It makes opening more hands way more logical (stealing the blinds is worth 2.25x what it used to be/the blinds suddenly cost you 2.25x per round, there are less people to act behind each opening position up to the button) and rake as a % of blinds/pots shrinks to a way more reasonable level. That's just the meat and potatoes of it...

I could get into the asparagus of it (all the training site robots start short-circuiting immediately for one--because there is no blue print), but that's unnecessary/I've done it enough over the years itt/it should be pretty basic common sense at this point imo.

You don't have to straddle. And since I started playing 2-5 a couple months ago I stopped even trying for it. Too much resistance. Too many people just want to fold all night. That's fine. My fault for being stuck in 2-5. Honestly.

But in my thread??? Nope. I can't handle that kind of rationalization that could potentially be construed as logic.

2-blind fr nl is dead. R.I.P.

OK, carry on/c u guys Tuesday.

Don't get me wrong, straddling is great, but I don't think 3-blinds will ever save poker as I think the abstraction that the strategy community (bunch of party poopers) is settling on is thinking of straddles as playing the higher stake with .25bb added rather than the current stake with 2bb added. It's a simple abstraction that allows nits to make very high quality decisions based on what they already know and do. Again, there are a lot of nuances to the 3rd blind that you mention and the third blind is a good thing, but as for saving poker from the nit robots I really don't see that happening because straddles are a lot more figured out today than they were many years ago. (source: am nit. used to spend a lot of time on training sites and etc).

Antes that are significant relative to the bb and card-removal games like short-deck are an interesting change. I don't think today you can look up "ante strategy" and have a pre-flop chart come up. If you find one, at that point, you can just change the ante amount to .5bb or 1bb or 2bb etc and it's a whole new game. Same with card-removal games. Just take out more cards or add some back in and it's a whole new game. I've heard they're starting to spread short deck .

One thing I'd like to add is to read the table before you try to bust out the mandatory straddles. In the 1/3 and 2/5 world as opposed to the "play the highest non-nosebleed in the room" world, people are making financial decisions on what stakes they want to play and purposefully not playing higher. Furthermore, while there are a lot of action players, a significant portion of the fish being catered to are the ones that buy-in at 50-70bb and want to limp in and see some cheap flops and do whatever they do at home games. There's plenty of weak passive players who aren't action players and don't want to straddle. Again, make sure to read the table.


tldr; Imo nits have figured out how to deal with straddles already. there are some appealing fixes to NLHE on the horizon. think about who you're playing with before mandatory straddling at the lowest stakes games in the room.

Last edited by pewpewrobot; 11-08-2018 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 11-08-2018, 02:21 PM   #5699
AALegend
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cuserounder View Post
By the way, DGAF, I have a question for you that should be right up your alley. If you don't get to it til next Tuesday, it's nbd.

Lately a new reg has moved to my main casino. He's a total parasitic piece of **** who has moved to our casino by being banned at the other two nearby casinos. He shoots angles, hides his big chips constantly (if he's told to move them up front, they're back there when the next dealer arrives - and he shuffles them in with his $1 chips while he's in hands a lot), slow rolls, takes forever on every mundane decision just to tilt people, plays the pump fake game with his chips while staring at people to get reads, routinely walks for 59 minutes, plays one round, walks for 59 minutes, etc, etc to lock up a seat for when the game is good later. He marks cards, I suspect to cheat although I can't prove it - but he definitely squeezes the **** out of them. He has tried to lock up the last seat in a bad 5/T game by leaving chips and his players card, while still playing the 1/3 because the bigger game is no good.

He's also slow as hell and routinely turns away from the table to be on his phone, eat, talk to people, etc, which causes a 10 second delay every hand before the dealer gets him to look at his cards. Only like 10% of dealers will just muck his hand, and I've actually considered reaching out and doing it myself unprompted (but I could get myself tossed for that).

He also does all of these things to non-regs, new players, action players, etc, and it pisses them off and sometimes they say they won't be back because of it. We lost one semi-regular whale specifically because of him, and one other semi-regular whale and 3-4x a week whale hate playing with him.

Problem is, we probably won't ever get him banned - he actually got caught going south for $500 and the floor's boss's boss vetoed the ban because they're friends outside the casino and he has the highest VIP card with the casino. He also plays the, "I don't speak English," game when the floor gets called - his English isn't good but I'm pretty sure it's better than he lets on.

So, given that I can probably never get him banned, what would you say is the optimal play here?

So far I've just been calling floor as soon as he does this stuff to put him on his final warning for the night as early as possible (they can probably toss him from poker for 24 hours, though it hasn't happened yet). When he angles/slow rolls someone and they get mad (or even if they don't), I now immediately start in on him - "Here we go again, you're such a scumbag, you angle everyone, slow roll everyone, etc, etc.."

My goal is to make everyone aware of what to expect so they don't fall for it, and to try to stick up for the rec players when it happens to them. Also to try to get him to curse at me or threaten me to get him kicked out for that. He did once while the floor was there, but got away with it.

All that said, it can make me look petty to people who don't know him, it creates drama at the table, it leads to shouting matches, and it creates extra work for the floors (most seem like they'd rather just let him be because they really don't give a **** about any of this).

I'll be talking to the room manager about it, but I don't expect it to go anywhere.

Curious what your game plan would be with this to balance trying to shut him down, trying to stick up for the rec players and trying to keep the game fun?
I will assist with this one better than anyone else, since this player (he goes by Chop-Chop) used to be a regular in my Philadelphia games for a long time.

Some key things he does:
1) He is really good at looking at the players' cards. That is he finds players who do not fully protect their cards, lift them up too high when looking at them and such, and then always tries to sit next to them. Alert the fish/older regs to this particular behavior.
2) His English is completely fine, he actually used to or even still owns a small business. He is also really good with playing up a crazy asian and no speak english card.
3) He is not a real 7 Stars - he is a companion member (his wife but still).
4) If you want him banned or thrown out, try to find a time when he shorts the pot (he only likes to do it with weak dealers and against older/weaker regs and/or fish) and then call for the camera review couple minutes after the hand.
5) One of his favorite angles in smaller games is pump/check raise. If he has a strong made hand or a strong draw first or second to act in a multi-way pot, he will often do a half-check or not do anything and if it checks through say I never got a chance to act and then bet. If 3 people check behind him, make sure to press on the dealer to call significant action behind not to let him pull that angle. If he does that half-check or not do anything in that spot, put him on the spot and ask him what he is doing (essentially blowing up his spot when he has a big hand). He hates it.

Besides all the scummy things and him being terrible for the game, there are couple lessons to learn from the scumbag:
1) He probably averages $50+ an hour (he definitely did in Philly games), but he completely downplays his abilities, tries to maintain a crazy/clueless asian image.
2) He does not mind playing games way below his limit (1/2 and 1/3) if the game is extra soft/bigger games are tough.
3) He is a true TAG. i.e. pretty tight overall, but not afraid to pull a big bluff when the situation is right.
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Old 11-09-2018, 12:43 AM   #5700
TimeBomb
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Re: 2k- a poker story (wtmfl;dr obv)

Lmao used to play with chop chop at borgata before he was banned and I loved playing with him.
I dont know how people feel about this, but I like to re-angle the angle shooters. When the guy pump fakes, muck your hand then immediately retrieve it, or just sigh and say you missed or good call. I dont do it often, and it's not really to get an advantage over opponent, but rather to protect the less experienced recs in the game.
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